Vancouver Downtown Streetcar | Proposed

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Good thing she can count on West End voters being drones who will just keep voting for her regardless. Hopefully the Cons will put up someone who can ride the Poilievre wave and kick her to the retirement curb.

I raised it in the BC election thread but can anyone point to anything at the provincial level that Spencer Chandra-Herbert has delivered for the same bloc of voters?

Getting funding for something like the streetcar would give each of them a perfect opportunity to show some benefit delivered!

She's 83. Older than Biden

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Good thing she can count on West End voters being drones who will just keep voting for her regardless. Hopefully the Cons will put up someone who can ride the Poilievre wave and kick her to the retirement curb.

She is 83. Probably 84 by the next election. She needs to quit.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

She is 83. Probably 84 by the next election. She needs to quit.

You better believe she's running again in 2025.

338 Canada has it as a toss-up between the LPC and CPC, with the NDP not far behind however, I wouldn't count the NDP out in this riding if this riding stays a near three-way race. If Avi Lewis of all people could garner 25% of the vote in West Van, he absolutely should be able to break 30%+ in downtown Vancouver.

But yeah, people need to get on Hedy Fry's and Spencer Chandra Hebert's backs about this if this is ever going to happen, especially while they're both still in government.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by mcj

You better believe she's running again in 2025.

Jesus Christ I will be a single issue voter to get her out of Parliament.

This made me LOL:

Just over three decades ago, Hedy Fry pulled off the remarkable feat, defeating Conservative Kim Campbell – Canada’s first and only woman PM – in Vancouver Centre.

As if the PCs were anything but getting swept in 1993.

[mattropolis]

Since we're totally off topic, it is interesting to point out that during the same 1993 election when Hedy Fry was first elected, Chuck Strahl won the riding of Chilliwack. He has since passed that riding to his son Mark. I guess Chilliwack is family heirloom to the Strahl family. There is no streetcar in Chilliwack either.

[BaddieB]

Can the streetcar idea die already. Downtown Toronto has streetcars and they are awful because of how slow they are. Vancouver will be no different. Sitting on the 5 or 6 is soul crushing, this will be no different. Extend the Skytrain to the West End and that's it.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

Can the streetcar idea die already. Downtown Toronto has streetcars and they are awful because of how slow they are. Vancouver will be no different. Sitting on the 5 or 6 is soul crushing, this will be no different. Extend the Skytrain to the West End and that's it.

Toronto's streetcars are awful because they run in mixed traffic. Go to any European city that has streetcars/trams running in dedicated right of ways and they're great, even the small parts of Toronto's network that have dedicated right of way are so much better than the other parts. In order for this project to work it would need dedicated car-free space to run, same could be said for improving service on the 5 or 6. Much cheaper to do that than tunneling under the West End. Although you'd basically have to close Robson, Denman and Davie to car traffic (or maybe make them one-way with a single lane and no parking).

[WarrenC12]

In other streetcar news, it might be the end for Seattle's small line:

https://www.fox13seattle.com/news/streetcars-once-ruled-seattle-now-slu-line-may-be-its-last-ride

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

In other streetcar news, it might be the end for Seattle's small line:

https://www.fox13seattle.com/news/streetcars-once-ruled-seattle-now-slu-line-may-be-its-last-ride

From the article:

The Seattle City Council is weighing a proposal to divert the $4.4 million annual operating budget for the 1.3-mile line to bolster bus routes that attract more riders.

This is the key. Until someone can convince me that a streetcar will do something that a bus, trolley or Skytrain can't do and do it for enough people to make it worthwhile, I see absolutely no point in it. People propounding streetcars because "we already have a right of way" or "they work great in Europe" need to get a grip. The money needs to go to where it will do the most good for the most people, and I see no Vancouver streetcar proposal that can pass that simple test.

If we're so hung up on rights of way then let's just run buses down them. That's the same bang for a lot less buck.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by mcj

You better believe she's running again in 2025.

338 Canada has it as a toss-up between the LPC and CPC, with the NDP not far behind however, I wouldn't count the NDP out in this riding if this riding stays a near three-way race. If Avi Lewis of all people could garner 25% of the vote in West Van, he absolutely should be able to break 30%+ in downtown Vancouver.

But yeah, people need to get on Hedy Fry's and Spencer Chandra Hebert's backs about this if this is ever going to happen, especially while they're both still in government.

She's like our Dianne Feinstein

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

In other streetcar news, it might be the end for Seattle's small line:

https://www.fox13seattle.com/news/streetcars-once-ruled-seattle-now-slu-line-may-be-its-last-ride

Shame to hear that the South Lake Union Tram might be going away.

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by mcj

Toronto's streetcars are awful because they run in mixed traffic. Go to any European city that has streetcars/trams running in dedicated right of ways and they're great, even the small parts of Toronto's network that have dedicated right of way are so much better than the other parts. In order for this project to work it would need dedicated car-free space to run, same could be said for improving service on the 5 or 6. Much cheaper to do that than tunneling under the West End. Although you'd basically have to close Robson, Denman and Davie to car traffic (or maybe make them one-way with a single lane and no parking).

You're proving my point. Aside from South False Creek there isn't anywhere for dedicated lanes. Even if there were, the tram would still have to contend with waiting at intersections and other interruptions. And even in other cities like in Paris, their trams have average speeds around 20 kmh, no better than a bus. A subway makes way more sense, because there would be one less transfer, no traffic, no nonsense, twice the speed, all resulting in strong ridership and happier transit users. Streetcar plans are made by people who don't actually use transit and have no idea what they're talking about.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Circling back to Vancouver, the streetcar is planned to have its own ROW for much of the route... and yet is planned to average 15 km/h, on par with a trolley bus in moderate traffic. This is not a serious project.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Circling back to Vancouver, the streetcar is planned to have its own ROW for much of the route... and yet is planned to average 15 km/h, on par with a trolley bus in moderate traffic. This is not a serious project.

But why is that the plan? Sounds like somebody is putting their thumb on the scale. Dedicated ROW means more speed. How can it not?

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

But why is that the plan? Sounds like somebody is putting their thumb on the scale. Dedicated ROW means more speed. How can it not?

Because it has to stop at red lights, and there are a high frequency of intersections downtown because of the street grid. Every red light slows down the average speed. The Skytrain goes 80kmh between stations, yet its average speed is half that at 40kmh because of 20 second stops at stations one to two kilometers apart. Now scale that with red lights every couple of blocks with a streetcar going at max speeds of only 30 to 50.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

Because it has to stop at red lights, and there are a high frequency of intersections downtown because of the street grid. Every red light slows down the average speed. The Skytrain goes 80kmh between stations, yet its average speed is half that at 40kmh because of 20 second stops at stations one to two kilometers apart. Now scale that with red lights every couple of blocks with a streetcar going at max speeds of only 30 to 50.

If poorly executed, yes the streetcar would have to stop at stoplights. If well executed it would have signal priority and, instead of stopping at red lights, the line would just have longer station dwell times.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

But why is that the plan? Sounds like somebody is putting their thumb on the scale. Dedicated ROW means more speed. How can it not?

I don't believe any streetcar proposal has a dedicated RoW for the entirety of the route, that's kind of antithetical to the concept of a streetcar. In the downtown section of any streetcar proposal, all we'd be doing is converting rubber wheels to steel wheels. Every intersection would be the same ones that busses use, and any streetcar lanes would be the same as bus lanes that busses use (perhaps moved to the centre lanes I suppose?)

Originally Posted by GenWhy?

If poorly executed, yes the streetcar would have to stop at stoplights. If well executed it would have signal priority and, instead of stopping at red lights, the line would just have longer station dwell times.

Sure, but why is that different from bus priority signals?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

Because it has to stop at red lights, and there are a high frequency of intersections downtown because of the street grid.

And/or because they want the tram going as slow/slower than the bus, even on the ROW.

Bottom line, this is no longer a people mover like it was half a decade ago. Now it's a tourist trap.

[GenWhy?]

Originally Posted by chowhou

Sure, but why is that different from bus priority signals?

I agree that it's the same situation

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I don't believe any streetcar proposal has a dedicated RoW for the entirety of the route, that's kind of antithetical to the concept of a streetcar. In the downtown section of any streetcar proposal, all we'd be doing is converting rubber wheels to steel wheels. Every intersection would be the same ones that busses use, and any streetcar lanes would be the same as bus lanes that busses use (perhaps moved to the centre lanes I suppose?)

TBF the designation of "streetcar" or "light rail" in North America is mostly cosmetic - some streetcars have ROWs or traffic priority, and some light rail gets snarled in traffic.