VIA Rail network developments

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

But Ottawa is a bit tricky in that its station isn't fully urban or suburban and is a sort of grey areas between the two. It's not downtown, but not that far from downtown at less than 4km. By comparison, Dorval is about 15km from Gare Centrale while Guildwood is about 19km from Union. And I'm not sure that Ottawa is a large enough market to warrant the additional cost and reduced travel time of two stations anyway.

The Ottawa station is 100% suburban. It is a single level facing behind a large front lawn and a long driveway leading from the road. In front of that is a 10 lane highway, in front of that is a big box district. South of the station is the largest big box shopping district in the city. East of the station is a generic 1950s suburban neighborhood, with a tunnel that leads to a 1950s suburban mall. West of the station is a wasteland of arterial roads and open fields.

I a, sure there is some alternative history where they kept the downtown station or built a more urban station (say at the foot of Billiings Bridge), but that didn’t happen. It is a station out of 1950s ideals.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Other than the adjacent property on Tremblay, the rest is not easily accessible for a pedestrian. A little bit of intensification within walking distance, does not justify making an intercity train station more difficult to reach for much of the east half of the city that the station is supposed to serve. This is not supposed to be a neighbourhood amenity, no different from Ottawa airport.

How is the station difficult to access for much of the east half of the city? It is literally on an LRT line that serves the eastern half of the city.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The Ottawa station is 100% suburban. It is a single level facing behind a large front lawn and a long driveway leading from the road. In front of that is a 10 lane highway, in front of that is a big box district. South of the station is the largest big box shopping district in the city. East of the station is a generic 1950s suburban neighborhood, with a tunnel that leads to a 1950s suburban mall. West of the station is a wasteland of arterial roads and open fields.

I a, sure there is some alternative history where they kept the downtown station or built a more urban station (say at the foot of Billiings Bridge), but that didn’t happen. It is a station out of 1950s ideals.

It is definitely suburban in nature now, and the road layout is 100% suburban. That said, there is quite a lot of potential for that to change quite soon. There is mid and highrise development planned directly adjacent to the station and the parking lots at the baseball stadium and retail across the highway are primed for intensification. The federal government has just designated the land at Riverside and Industrial for expedited development. Decent biking, pedestrian and transit infrastructure is already in place.

If we are building a HSR station, we are building for the next 100 years, so it isn't unreasonable to plan for a more urban environment.

[Innsertnamehere]

An airport connection makes sense if the airport has large numbers of international connections.

A decent chunk of YOW's traffic is routes that exactly replicate the HSR line. I just don't see the value of it.

A station at Dorval or an extension to Pearson though? there is value in that as it provides international connects in a significant volume in a way that YOW simply doesn't.

If anything HSR from Ottawa to Dorval is likely to hurt YOW quite significantly on international routes as it will be easier for most to take the train to Dorval and catch a plane there, instead. ESPECIALLY if Air Canada is involved and code-shares it.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

An airport connection makes sense if the airport has large numbers of international connections.

A decent chunk of YOW's traffic is routes that exactly replicate the HSR line. I just don't see the value of it.

A station at Dorval or an extension to Pearson though? there is value in that as it provides international connects in a significant volume in a way that YOW simply doesn't.

If anything HSR from Ottawa to Dorval is likely to hurt YOW quite significantly on international routes as it will be easier for most to take the train to Dorval and catch a plane there, instead. ESPECIALLY if Air Canada is involved and code-shares it.

It could both ways, as it can also give YOW the ability to attract new international flights that are suddenly more accessible to Montrealers and people east of Toronto. I personally hate flying through Pearson, going through customs at YOW is way calmer.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

It could both ways, as it can also give YOW the ability to attract new international flights that are suddenly more accessible to Montrealers and people east of Toronto. I personally hate flying through Pearson, going through customs at YOW is way calmer.

I agree that once you get an hour east of Toronto, YOW starts to make a lot of sense if you have a direct flight. But is there a plan to have any stops in that stretch, other than Peterborough?

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

An airport connection makes sense if the airport has large numbers of international connections.

A decent chunk of YOW's traffic is routes that exactly replicate the HSR line. I just don't see the value of it.

A station at Dorval or an extension to Pearson though? there is value in that as it provides international connects in a significant volume in a way that YOW simply doesn't.

If anything HSR from Ottawa to Dorval is likely to hurt YOW quite significantly on international routes as it will be easier for most to take the train to Dorval and catch a plane there, instead. ESPECIALLY if Air Canada is involved and code-shares it.

I tend to agree, and given that Air Canada is one of the members of the consortium that is rumoured to have won, they are likely wanting to remove most of their flights to/from YOW, and use the train to connect passengers to YUL and YYZ.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

It is definitely suburban in nature now, and the road layout is 100% suburban. That said, there is quite a lot of potential for that to change quite soon. There is mid and highrise development planned directly adjacent to the station and the parking lots at the baseball stadium and retail across the highway are primed for intensification. The federal government has just designated the land at Riverside and Industrial for expedited development. Decent biking, pedestrian and transit infrastructure is already in place.

If we are building a HSR station, we are building for the next 100 years, so it isn't unreasonable to plan for a more urban environment.

Even if this happens the station will still be 90% suburban. Unless there is some radical change like redesigning the whole road network it is still going to be a completely suburban experience.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by phil235

I agree that once you get an hour east of Toronto, YOW starts to make a lot of sense if you have a direct flight. But is there a plan to have any stops in that stretch, other than Peterborough?

According to this image from a recent Radio-Canada article, Smith Falls might be added.



However, where the reporter found that image is not clear – so it might not be correct.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by phil235

How is the station difficult to access for much of the east half of the city? It is literally on an LRT line that serves the eastern half of the city.

Let's be realistic. What percentage can use Line 1 while hauling luggage? That really cuts the usability. Who is walking 1 km or using the local bus that may or may not show up..

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Let's be realistic. What percentage can use Line 1 while hauling luggage? That really cuts the usability. Who is walking 1 km or using the local bus that may or may not show up..

People don't have much lugguage for the most part anymore. It's more about the multiple transfers. The 1 hour trip you outlined now isn't too bad. 90 minutes is just ridiculous.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

People don't have much lugguage for the most part anymore. It's more about the multiple transfers. The 1 hour trip you outlined now isn't too bad. 90 minutes is just ridiculous.

All the passengers going to and from the airport had luggage. One had too much to handle but probably heading overseas. Not everybody is doing a one nighter

[OTSkyline]

What would be the benefits of a Smiths Fall station?

I feel like the added cost of another station and the time loss to add another stop would be substantial in comparison to usage it may get..

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The Ottawa station is 100% suburban. It is a single level facing behind a large front lawn and a long driveway leading from the road. In front of that is a 10 lane highway, in front of that is a big box district. South of the station is the largest big box shopping district in the city. East of the station is a generic 1950s suburban neighborhood, with a tunnel that leads to a 1950s suburban mall. West of the station is a wasteland of arterial roads and open fields.

I a, sure there is some alternative history where they kept the downtown station or built a more urban station (say at the foot of Billiings Bridge), but that didn’t happen. It is a station out of 1950s ideals.

It may be suburban in terms of the current style of development in the area but that's not the main thing I was referring to. In common usage, the term suburban can refer to either development style (lower density, auto-orientation, etc.) or location (away from the central city and/or a separate municipality).

In this case, the station isn't 100% suburban in that it isn't very far from downtown and the inner city so it's suburban in one sense but not the other. For it to be totally suburban, it would need to be suburban in both style and location. It's possible to have even more extreme combinations such as a place that is suburban in nature but right downtown or places that are pockets of urban far out near the periphery. But not even these extremes would be 100% one or the other so the station certainly isn't. Fortunately the current development style is less important than the location in terms of future planning since the the development style of an area can be changed much more easily.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

What would be the benefits of a Smiths Fall station?

I feel like the added cost of another station and the time loss to add another stop would be substantial in comparison to usage it may get..

And Casselman and Alexandria as well that will otherwise lose all service?

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Let's be realistic. What percentage can use Line 1 while hauling luggage? That really cuts the usability. Who is walking 1 km or using the local bus that may or may not show up..

The elephant in the room here is that given the market cost of parking, it would be as or more affordable for most people just to take a taxi or rideshare rather than to drive and park. Plus it would save time/hassle on parking the car and schlepping to and from and parking area. Airports are common destinations for taxis and rideshare in many cities so I'm not sure why a busy, semi-suburban train station should be different. Yet all we seem to be discussing is driving and parking vs transit.

Unless the idea is to subsidize parking, but that can't be done on a large enough scale to apply to a significant percentage of people on a busy service like HSR would likely be. And frankly it would be quite unfair since you'd be paying significantly more to provide service to some people compared to others. Rail service gets disproportionately high patronage from people living car light or car free, yet these people wouldn't be getting any of the additional subsidy. In fact they'd be helping to cover the subsidy of others through either the train ticket price or taxes. .

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

What would be the benefits of a Smiths Fall station?

I feel like the added cost of another station and the time loss to add another stop would be substantial in comparison to usage it may get..

Politically speaking f we only have Smith Falls and Peterbourough before GTA we should be very happy. It might not get a ton of passengers but could be a commuting option to Ottawa especially 2X a week. It's likely to be very expensive though.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

The elephant in the room here is that given the market cost of parking, it would be as or more affordable for most people just to take a taxi or rideshare rather than to drive and park. Plus it would save time/hassle on parking the car and schlepping to and from and parking area. Airports are common destinations for taxis and rideshare in many cities so I'm not sure why a busy, semi-suburban train station should be different. Yet all we seem to be discussing is driving and parking vs transit.

Unless the idea is to subsidize parking, but that can't be done on a large enough scale to apply to a significant percentage of people on a busy service like HSR would likely be. And frankly it would be quite unfair since you'd be paying significantly more to provide service to some people compared to others. Rail service gets disproportionately high patronage from people living car light or car free, yet these people wouldn't be getting any of the additional subsidy. In fact they'd be helping to cover the subsidy of others through either the train ticket price or taxes. .

It is all about giving options and letting everybody determine what is best for them. Every major airport offers long-term parking. Airports and intercity rail stations serve large catchment areas. Not everybody is effectively served by transit/Uber/taxis . We need to serve a broad portion of the population. It is not about subsidies. It is about serving the public who may wish to use the service. Not everybody who drives wants to deal with downtown Montreal or Toronto traffic or the 401. All I have been saying is don't block out a portion of the market for the sake of one or two condo towers in a less attractive location.

[Truenorth00]

People are getting way too fixated on current infrastructure. To my knowledge, the RFP only required certain cities to be served. It never required them to use existing stations. We don't know yet what the developer will decide. Maybe they decide to build a new station at Hurdman to have access to more than just Line 1. Heck, maybe they decide that Ottawa isn't worth more than Fallowfield being an HSR station. Who knows. We'll see when the final design is out.

As for development around a station, think of HSR more like a dense airport than a traditional VIA station. If this thing gets a train every half hour, the numbers and types of travelers will change. It won't be your usual VIA type traveler with a suitcase. It will be a ton of business travelers with a laptop bag and occasionally an overnight bag. The land value uplift around a station will drive development substantially. Y'all think only about Tremblay. But a place like Fallowfield would now be less than 2 hrs from an Eastern GTA station, where a ton of tech offices are (Markham and Richmond Hill). The areas within walking distances of those stations will substantially develop naturally, over time, if they are allowed to.

As for parking, it will be needed. But with land values going up, it's going to be a lot more expensive and that higher cost can pay for parking structures. Yes, European suburban HSR has parking. Extremely rare that it is cheap surface parking though. And since a lot of day tripping business travelers can get parking reimbursed, there will be no fear charging double or triple what they do today.

All of this will be much easier to understand if you think of an HSR station like a moderately busy regional airport. If your primary means of intercity travel today is driving, this isn't aimed at you. The first customer base for this kind of intercity service has to be business travelers. And second are those with some discretionary flights. Those who drive are far behind that. Just like airlines make more than half their revenue from the front quarter of the airplane, HSR in most places gets the bulk of ridership and revenue from business travelers and long haul commuters. VFR (Visiting Friends and Relatives) and tourists are added bonuses.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by phil235

I agree that once you get an hour east of Toronto, YOW starts to make a lot of sense if you have a direct flight. But is there a plan to have any stops in that stretch, other than Peterborough?

Back when VIA first starting planning the project in-house as a conventional rail project there were planned stations in Smiths Falls, Sharbot Lake, and Tweed, and they held some town hall type events in the local communities to discuss these plans. At one point VIA was open to adding stops in Havelock & Perth as well. They did caution locals that these stations would likely only have very ceremonial levels of service: only 1 or 2 trains a day and no train would stop more than once between Peterborough & Ottawa so you'd have no ability to travel locally within the corridor.

But the newer plan seems to forgo local stops entirely (other than maybe Smiths Falls). On the one hand, these communities are VERY small (Sharbot Lake, for example, has a population of about 300) so it seems a bit ridiculous to serve them. Although with only 1 train a day and using a skip-stop model to ensure no single trip stops more than once between Toronto & Ottawa the impact on travel times is minimal.

But on the other hand.. the former rail corridor in this area no longer exists. It was ripped up between Havelock & Perth quite some time ago and has since been built over in every village it passes through. Restoring the line on its exact former route means a lot of demolition. Sharbot Lake, especially.. you'd have to destroy its doctors office, dentist office, post office, grocery store, and the village's main park, in order to restore the railway ROW. I presume the plan will be to build a new ROW through the area instead. But even that is tricky because the area is full of cottages and protected wetlands.. not to mention indigenous land claims.

The original HFR concept had a lot of holes and throwing the planning over to the private sector was probably a good idea, but VIA was smart to try to get ahead of the inevitable controversies by proposing stations in the area right at the beginning to get the locals on board.