VIA Rail network developments

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There is a transit station right next to the train station. It would be nice if the connection was covered, but other than that I can’t see how the station could be more integrated.

Correct. For a city of Ottawa's size and urban structure I don't think you're going to get anything more at Ottawa Station than the current O-Train station, even with HSR. There is no compelling reason for it to become a transit hub with additional lines radiating from there.

Any improvements to Ottawa Station's transit connectivity will come from further expansions of the O-Train to other parts of the region, not from anything additional being implemented at Tremblay Road.

[7empest]

I mean in terms of frequency and reliability.

For the record, I have a car. I'd just rather not have to take it and park it at VIA rail while I ride the theoretical HSR for a trip to Toronto or Montréal.

[DTcrawler]

Again, I think it’s important to think in future terms and recognize that HSR will make Ottawa Station a focal point more than it’s ever been before.

Even though its current surroundings are rather bleak, it’s still only 3.7km to Parliament Hill as the crow flies, which is a similar distance as Lansdowne. The location has more potential than the desolate suburban/industrial environment that people are implying.

As I listed in a recent post there are numerous parcels nearby which already have proposals or are slated for (re)development. Once HSR opens, the pace of development will only accelerate.

It’s foolish to look at the state of the station today, flanked by two surface lots, and say that’s a good use of space immediately adjacent to a future HSR hub. I can guarantee you the folks currently working on the HSR file have much loftier expectations for a project of this cost and magnitude.

Consolidate parking into a structure, price it accordingly, and double up the land-use to provide other amenities in the immediate vicinity of the station.

If you’re expecting free surface parking next to an HSR station, you’re out of your damn mind.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

Again, I think it’s important to think in future terms and recognize that HSR will make Ottawa Station a focal point more than it’s ever been before.

Even though its current surroundings are rather bleak, it’s still only 3.7km to Parliament Hill as the crow flies, which is a similar distance as Lansdowne. The location has more potential than the desolate suburban/industrial environment that people are implying.

As I listed in a recent post there are numerous parcels nearby which already have proposals or are slated for (re)development. Once HSR opens, the pace of development will only accelerate.

It’s foolish to look at the state of the station today, flanked by two surface lots, and say that’s a good use of space immediately adjacent to a future HSR hub. I can guarantee you the folks currently working on the HSR file have much loftier expectations for a project of this cost and magnitude.

Consolidate parking into a structure, price it accordingly, and double up the land-use to provide other amenities in the immediate vicinity of the station.

If you’re expecting free surface parking next to an HSR station, you’re out of your damn mind.

If HSR is ever built their objective will be to put asses in seats, which will include making it attractive to people who currently fly or drive. They would be incredibly foolish to prioritize condos that do nothing for ridership over paying customers. 90% of the city lives in car centric suburbs. The train station is completely surrounded by car centric everything.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

Again, I think it’s important to think in future terms and recognize that HSR will make Ottawa Station a focal point more than it’s ever been before.

Even though its current surroundings are rather bleak, it’s still only 3.7km to Parliament Hill as the crow flies, which is a similar distance as Lansdowne. The location has more potential than the desolate suburban/industrial environment that people are implying.

As I listed in a recent post there are numerous parcels nearby which already have proposals or are slated for (re)development. Once HSR opens, the pace of development will only accelerate.

It’s foolish to look at the state of the station today, flanked by two surface lots, and say that’s a good use of space immediately adjacent to a future HSR hub. I can guarantee you the folks currently working on the HSR file have much loftier expectations for a project of this cost and magnitude.

Consolidate parking into a structure, price it accordingly, and double up the land-use to provide other amenities in the immediate vicinity of the station.

If you’re expecting free surface parking next to an HSR station, you’re out of your damn mind.

All of this can happen with O-Train Line 1 remaining the only direct rapid transit service to Ottawa Station going forward in the future. (Though sure, perhaps the frequency of service could be increased.)

I actually wonder if all this pans out if it might not mean that Hurdman one station over could become an expanded transit hub, with for example the conversion of the SE Transitway to rail.

[LRTeverywhere]

Originally Posted by acottawa

If HSR is ever built their objective will be to put asses in seats, which will include making it attractive to people who currently fly or drive. They would be incredibly foolish to prioritize condos that do nothing for ridership over paying customers.

You can easily put some parking (even more than currently exists) under said condos, the housing value for them is always going to win out with way higher returns on investment than 300 surface parking spots that can only fill a train or two

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by LRTeverywhere

You can easily put some parking (even more than currently exists) under said condos, the housing value for them is always going to win out with way higher returns on investment than 300 surface parking spots that can only fill a train or two

I don’t think anyone thinks surface parking is a long term solution, but I don’t think condo-integrated parking would appeal to anyone. Also, who wants to live in a condo in a train station beside a highway? A hotel might have some appeal.

[zzptichka]

Looking at the best practices in Berlin, VIA can charge 40 CAD per day. I think an underground garage with a couple of levels should cover the demand at this price.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by LRTeverywhere

Well there is the lands immediately next to the station being actively redevoloped, theres that massive rezoning at Coventry and Belfast, Trainyards, while slow seems to still be planning to redevolop the areas to the south. And Via has been apprehensive to let us build a bridge through the area because of their potential redevolopment plans.

Other than the adjacent property on Tremblay, the rest is not easily accessible for a pedestrian. A little bit of intensification within walking distance, does not justify making an intercity train station more difficult to reach for much of the east half of the city that the station is supposed to serve. This is not supposed to be a neighbourhood amenity, no different from Ottawa airport.

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There is a transit station right next to the train station. It would be nice if the connection was covered, but other than that I can’t see how the station could be more integrated.

City planners tried connecting the o-train station to the via rail station back in the early planning stages of Phase 1. I kid you not, they got told that the "heritage" of the train station would be compromised by a direct connection so that's why there's no connection.

[Nouvellecosse]

I actually agree that providing some parking to suburban dwellers is a good idea. But I always envisioned that happening in the form of parking structures in secondary stations near the outskirts of major metros rather than at main stations. Locations like the VIA stations at Guildwood or Dorval for instance. I realize Guildwood won't be on the new route so I'm not referring to it specifically, just that the new route would have a secondary intercity station a similar distance from the city centre.

But Ottawa is a bit tricky in that its station isn't fully urban or suburban and is a sort of grey areas between the two. It's not downtown, but not that far from downtown at less than 4km. By comparison, Dorval is about 15km from Gare Centrale while Guildwood is about 19km from Union. And I'm not sure that Ottawa is a large enough market to warrant the additional cost and reduced travel time of two stations anyway.

I think the best option I've heard is the person who suggested having a parking structure with market rate parking combined with improved transit links. Even in the Toronto and Montreal examples, we can safely assume that there wouldn't be enough demand to justify a suburban station based solely on parking and would need good transit links as well. With Dorval, REM could be extended an extra km from the airport, and hopefully a higher order transit connection would be provided to a suburban Toronto station as well. The station could be at McCowan Rd. which is very close to where the line 2 extension is planned to end at McCowan and Sheppard. And a Sheppard LRT extension would help with that as well.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Looking at the best practices in Berlin, VIA can charge 40 CAD per day. I think an underground garage with a couple of levels should cover the demand at this price.

Does the airport charge $40 per day?

[LRTeverywhere]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

A little bit of intensification within walking distance, does not justify making an intercity train station more difficult to reach for much of the east half of the city that the station is supposed to serve. This is not supposed to be a neighbourhood amenity, no different from Ottawa airport.

Please point out what would make it harder to get to this station from adding more devolopments to the area. Nobody has suggested decreasing parking, just adding more devolopments (that can include parking for the station). Theres still going to be a highway right next door, theres still going to be the LRT. Why are you set on not creating any improvements to the area?

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Does the airport charge $40 per day?

The lowest rate I see at BER is 49 euros for a full day which is $74 cad at current exchange rates.

https://ber.berlin-airport.de/en/parking/preise.html

[Richard Eade]

Is there a possibility that the new electric HSR will be brought in to a new station co-located with the Ottawa International Airport?

• I believe that the route design is largely being done with little regard for VIA (i.e., VIA is not in control of what gets designed).
  
• Having the high-speed train travel slowly through Ottawa to get into and out of the current Ottawa Station will slow down the through trip between Toronto and Montreal.
  
• Creating a Transportation Hub, including trains, planes, and buses, could allow much better connections between modes.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I would hardly consider Ottawa’s station as “urban”

Avignon TGV or Rome Tiburtina are probably the closest Ottawa analogies I can think of in Europe. Both have large parking facilities.

Rome Termini has parking. Most German stations have parking facilities endorsed by DB, including Munich for example.

https://www.bahnhof.de/en/muenchen-hbf/parking-spaces

And Berlin

https://www.bahnhof.de/en/berlin-hauptbahnhof/parking-spaces

Ok, I did think of the TGV stations outside of cities. They are more like airports in orientation, with lots more land.

Rome is not a bad comparison in terms of location. I would say both are urban, as in not suburban, but not downtown. Both are on rapid transit. As others have said, provide some parking in a structure, but the funding of the HSR project will depend on development around the stations.

This station is mostly going to be competing with the airport, so I think it's fine to have some parking but assume that most people won't be parking for extended periods and will find other ways to get to the station.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Is there a possibility that the new electric HSR will be brought in to a new station co-located with the Ottawa International Airport?

• I believe that the route design is largely being done with little regard for VIA (i.e., VIA is not in control of what gets designed).
  
• Having the high-speed train travel slowly through Ottawa to get into and out of the current Ottawa Station will slow down the through trip between Toronto and Montreal.
  
• Creating a Transportation Hub, including trains, planes, and buses, could allow much better connections between modes.

Good point. I think it is definitely possible that a new station would be part of the plan.

The idea of a full transportation hub at the airport is a little dubious as it's unlikely that intercity buses will ever locate there, as their clientele is much more urban. Same with Via trains. The airport would only be convenient for air to HSR transfers, which is not going to be a big source of ridership in Ottawa (why not just fly to Toronto or Montreal in the first place). There won't be that many people heading to Peterborough.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Looking at the best practices in Berlin, VIA can charge 40 CAD per day. I think an underground garage with a couple of levels should cover the demand at this price.

Berlin is a not a best practice for Ottawa. We shouldn't reinvent the wheel but let's accept who we are.

How much does the Brightline in Fort Lauderdale charge for parking? Miami does have Condos above it but the location is again downtown.

[vtecyo]

Originally Posted by rdaner

On UT this article is apparently leaking the winner:

https://www.noovo.info/video/un-projet-de-tgv-entre-quebec-et-toronto-bientot-lance.html

Yeah - assuming I'm reading it correctly - looks like the Cadence team (CDPQ Infra, SNC-Lavalin, Systra Canada, Keolis Canada).

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

Is there a possibility that the new electric HSR will be brought in to a new station co-located with the Ottawa International Airport?

• I believe that the route design is largely being done with little regard for VIA (i.e., VIA is not in control of what gets designed).
  
• Having the high-speed train travel slowly through Ottawa to get into and out of the current Ottawa Station will slow down the through trip between Toronto and Montreal.
  
• Creating a Transportation Hub, including trains, planes, and buses, could allow much better connections between modes.

I remember suggesting that in the old HSR thread. I think it could actually save 20 minutes off a Toronto-Montreal run via Ottawa because the tracks into the city have too many curves. Couple that with maybe extending Line 4 into a Bank Street subway for a direct downtown to airport/HSR station

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Super pipe dream. I know some people hate the prospect of having the train station even farther from downtown, but I think HSR should be well integrated into the airport for it to be truly competitive with air travel. Also if all Toronto-Montreal runs were to be routed through Ottawa, there should be a streamlined bypass that makes a stop really brief and allows the train to re-accelerate quicker. Maybe XDS should only be used for trips that terminate in Ottawa and integrate regional and intercity buses. A bypass would also free up the station and some of the rails in the city for urban/suburban and regional lines.

Elsewhere I posted Shanghai Hongqiao airport/HSR station as an example, of an integrated transport hub ,it also has 2 metro lines going into it and functions as an intercity bus terminal as well