Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think it's an exaggeration that people here vehemently deny the severity of our winters and eagerly embrace them.

Annual all-inclusive holidays to places down south like Cayo Coco and Punta Cana are close to being a national obsession.

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(that accent some of them had! )

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It's not just the number of hours of sunshine, it's also the intensity of the light. 1 hour of sunshine in winter in Paris is not the same as 1 hour of sunshine in winter in Lyon where it's more intense in terms of luminosity, and downtown Montréal is 25 km south of Lyon. But like I've said, it's not something that people here realize.

Yes, that's true.

For me, the cold and snow don't bother me at all in the winter. As you can imagine cold and snow-covered but sunny days here are extremely bright.

What I hate is the wind in the winter. That is what kills me.

Thankfully I don't live in one of the windier cities in Canada.

From what I can see we might even slightly less windy than Paris.

Though of course we do get killer winter winds from time to time.

That sucks.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I have a friend who lives in Bergen, Norway, which is a pretty attractive small city. But... 13.5 hours of sunshine in the entire month of December!

EDIT: At the airport, it's 12!

Last winter in Paris we had an entire month with 0 hour of sunshine!! People were starting to joke about it in the end (like announcements on Twitter: "Perdu : grand astre jaune nommé soleil. Si vous le retrouvez, merci de contacter le etc.").

When the sun finally returned in the end of February some people were like: "C'est quoi ce truc jaune dans le ciel ?".

Gallows humor.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by big T

I think Molson’s "we built this place too" referring to the historic Anglo community is also missing the point to an extent. The concern around language nowadays is largely about fairly recent (as in 1-2 generations) and current immigrants. Like, Vietnamese kids raised here who end up identifying as anglophone even though they’re near perfectly bilingual, and increasingly people using bogus study programs to end up in low wage customer service jobs (making the issue all the more visible and touchy). Even though I think those are usually overblown, they undeniably exist and need to be addressed.

I suppose you could argue that these more recent arrivals are in fact the contemporary torch bearers of a continuing anglophone presence, but that, I think, is unrealistic. Language territoriality is a thing most everywhere for a reason, and the fact is here and now, it’s French. That is the culture immigrants should expect to join within the borders of this polity.

Eloquently put but one could say that since English is the predominant tongue of most Canadians that immigrants should expect to join within the borders of this polity. Canada has a relatively large francophone minority, and Quebec has a sizable Anglo minority. Why does it have to be all or nothing?

I am not referring to newcomers as "torch bearers" to maintain or promote the Anglo fact, but rather, how some of us Anglos may sometimes feel unwelcome in our own city, especially when there is political turmoil. Is it so hard to understand that Quebec Anglos are as attached to their unique minority culture as Quebecois are to theirs?

Besides, should New Brunswick just become English speaking?

Anyways, my perspective is not that provocative.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by big T

I think Molson’s "we built this place too" referring to the historic Anglo community is also missing the point to an extent. The concern around language nowadays is largely about fairly recent (as in 1-2 generations) and current immigrants. Like, Vietnamese kids raised here who end up identifying as anglophone even though they’re near perfectly bilingual, and increasingly people using bogus study programs to end up in low wage customer service jobs (making the issue all the more visible and touchy). Even though I think those are usually overblown, they undeniably exist and need to be addressed.

I suppose you could argue that these more recent arrivals are in fact the contemporary torch bearers of a continuing anglophone presence, but that, I think, is unrealistic. Language territoriality is a thing most everywhere for a reason, and the fact is here and now, it’s French. That is the culture immigrants should expect to join within the borders of this polity.

The anglophone community has already considerably transitioned away from its British roots, as evidenced for example by the people who run Montreal's English school board:

https://www.emsb.qc.ca/emsb/about/governance/commissioners

I don't think there is a true British Isles surname amongst all of the commissioners there. It's very predominantly Italian and Ashkenazi Jewish.

It's ironic that in Quebec the true descendants of the original anglo community are probably divided in three, with one third still in the province and still part of the anglophone community, one third living outside Quebec (mostly in the ROC with some in the US) and one third seamlessly assimilated into the francophone majority.

Yet the community continues to grow demographically due to the assimilation of newcomers of all origins to the anglophone sphere, and tomorrow's torchbearers for "historic English" in Montreal will be that Vietnamese kid you mention, plus Palestinians, Brazilians, Romanians, etc.

It's as if a Polish dude moved to Winnipeg, noted that there is lots of Franco-Manitoban history in the province and in parts of the city like Saint-Boniface, learned French instead of English and started getting all aggressive about French and calling anglophone Winnipeggers racists and shitheads. Now multiply that by a couple hundred thousand.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What I hate is the wind in the winter. That is what kills me.

Thankfully I don't live in one of the windier cities in Canada.

From what I can see we might even slightly less windy than Paris.

Though of course we do get killer winter winds from time to time.

That sucks.

I experienced blizzard once in Manhattan around New Year. Awful! Glad we don't have that here.

I'm also unusual here in that I prefer mild and grayish days, with slight drizzle, as our winters have become lately with global warming, rather than sunny dry very cold "Siberian" days (as we call them here). I hate Siberian days, but most Parisians much prefer Siberian days rather than the mild gray mush.

Last winter we had temperature almost around +15 in January (at the cost of being gray) and that was really fine by me. I don't miss the Siberian winters of old. (my first winter in Paris the temperature plunged to minus 10! )

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I experienced blizzard once in Manhattan around New Year. Awful! Glad we don't have that here.

I'm also unusual here in that I prefer mild and grayish days, with slight drizzle, as our winters have become lately with global warming, rather than sunny dry very cold "Siberian" days (as we call them here). I hate Siberian days, but most Parisians much prefer Siberian days rather than the mild gray mush.

Last winter we had temperature almost around +15 in January (at the cost of being gray) and that was really fine by me. I don't miss the Siberian winters of old. (my first winter in Paris the temperature plunged to minus 10! )

In Canada at least, you can't have it all in terms of climate.

As such, our mildest cities in the winter, Vancouver and Victoria, are among the least sunny.

I think maybe the only exception to that is St. John's, Newfoundland, which got hit by les sept plaies d'Égypte in terms of climate: it's cold, snowy, slushy, windy AND cloudy with little sunshine in the wintertime.

[1overcosc]

Edit: Nvm

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by big T

I think Molson’s "we built this place too" referring to the historic Anglo community is also missing the point to an extent. The concern around language nowadays is largely about fairly recent (as in 1-2 generations) and current immigrants. Like, Vietnamese kids raised here who end up identifying as anglophone even though they’re near perfectly bilingual, and increasingly people using bogus study programs to end up in low wage customer service jobs (making the issue all the more visible and touchy). Even though I think those are usually overblown, they undeniably exist and need to be addressed.

I suppose you could argue that these more recent arrivals are in fact the contemporary torch bearers of a continuing anglophone presence, but that, I think, is unrealistic. Language territoriality is a thing most everywhere for a reason, and the fact is here and now, it’s French. That is the culture immigrants should expect to join within the borders of this polity.

In the medium term, it's definitely a serious existential threat for both the anglo community and for Canada as the entity we know today.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The anglophone community has already considerably transitioned away from its British roots, as evidenced for example by the people who run Montreal's English school board:

https://www.emsb.qc.ca/emsb/about/governance/commissioners

I don't think there is a true British Isles surname amongst all of the commissioners there. It's very predominantly Italian and Ashkenazi Jewish.

It's ironic that in Quebec the true descendants of the original anglo community are probably divided in three, with one third still in the province and still part of the anglophone community, one third living outside Quebec (mostly in the ROC with some in the US) and one third seamlessly assimilated into the francophone majority.

Yet the community continues to grow demographically due to the assimilation of newcomers of all origins to the anglophone sphere, and tomorrow's torchbearers for "historic English" in Montreal will be that Vietnamese kid you mention, plus Palestinians, Brazilians, Romanians, etc.

It's as if a Polish dude moved to Winnipeg, noted that there is lots of Franco-Manitoban history in the province and in parts of the city like Saint-Boniface, learned French instead of English and started getting all aggressive about French and calling anglophone Winnipeggers racists and shitheads. Now multiply that by a couple hundred thousand.

Interesting though politics might be not 100% representative of the current community dynamics. It's really overwhelmingly Italian though. Anecdontally I know lots of Italians who went to French school but parents chose English school. (Some of the older stock chose French school in the 80s despite being eligble for English school and maintain that right.) Meanwhile there are kids in English school with both parents from France.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Interesting though politics might be not 100% representative of the current community dynamics. It's really overwhelmingly Italian though. Anecdontally I know lots of Italians who went to French school but parents chose English school. (Some of the older stock chose French school in the 80s despite being eligble for English school and maintain that right.) Meanwhile there are kids in English school with both parents from France.

I gather you are talking about Ontario. It would be a challenge for a couple for France (or any country other than Canada) to send their kid to an English public school in Quebec.

Unless they're only here temporarily on a special work permit or something.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

That's true to some extent though. 12 to 15 million people descending from only 5,000 original settlers, that's unseen anywhere else in the world (even if you take into account the fact some indeed had children with native Indians or other communities). A French demographer had calculated that if the French had reproduced as much as the French Canadians since 1700, there would be... 1 billion French people today!

It's actually not that uncommon to find two random White American celebrities and discover that they're distantly related to each other through a single 17th century Quebecois ancestor. Angelina Jolie, Madonna, and Mark Wahlberg, for example, are all 10th cousins of each other, descended from the Demers family (brothers Etienne & Jean who moved from France to Quebec in the 17th century). I'm also descended from one of the Demers brothers - patrilineally - although my surname isn't actually Demers because one of my patrilineal ancestors in the 19th century was adopted.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I gather you are talking about Ontario. It would be a challenge for a couple for France (or any country other than Canada) to send their kid to an English public school in Quebec.

Imagine if these laws did not exist (as MonctonRad would love to)...

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

YES.

I didn't know how much different it would be before coming here.

My brother-in-law is an immigrant from the UK and he's commented before how surprised he was at how warm & sunny summertime is in Ontario. His family often visits in the summer.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I gather you are talking about Ontario. It would be a challenge for a couple for France (or any country other than Canada) to send their kid to an English public school in Quebec.

Unless they're only here temporarily on a special work permit or something.

Nope. Montreal. Not sure how they do it. The weirdest is two nieces are in French Immersion in the English board and they both have someone from France in their class. Maybe work permit but one has been in the class for years. (My sister commented she kind of has a werid accent almost like a non-native speaker but it's probably just a mix of Quebec standard and rural French) Also a few other immigrants from West Africa. Loopholes or really you can just print a diploma from an English school. Sort of like all the Gatinois I see dropping their kids off at English schools in Ottawa. (This is from license plates so maybe divorce or whatever but I see it a lot)

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, that's true.

For me, the cold and snow don't bother me at all in the winter. As you can imagine cold and snow-covered but sunny days here are extremely bright.

What I hate is the wind in the winter. That is what kills me.

Thankfully I don't live in one of the windier cities in Canada.

From what I can see we might even slightly less windy than Paris.

Though of course we do get killer winter winds from time to time.

That sucks.

Last winter it didn't even get below -20 here. Even with La Nina this year I doubt it will get very cold. I bet winter here will be much like Toronto is now in a few short years. Skating on the canal will be a distant memory.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by harls

Last winter it didn't even get below -20 here.

Only minus 15. So warm!

It's funny how you don't even realize how cold it is anymore. Here minus 5 is already panicking most people. Air traffic at CDG and Orly get largely affected with only just a small freeze of minus 2 and a few snowflakes. Last year some people were stranded in their cars all night on freeways in the western suburb after barely half an inch of snowfall.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Some people would argue that you are.

There’s no “argument”. If Y weakens X, and X is fragile, then Y is an enemy of X’s long-term survival.

Unilingual Francophones moving to Potton for the nice scenery and cheaper-than-Montreal real estate are also enemies of the Townships’ Anglos long-term survival, it’s just a cold hard observable fact. No malice is needed on the part of the ones doing the “harm”, they’re just doing what’s reasonable for their own selves.

Italians and Jews were smart to pick the “winner” community back when they were allowed to choose. I would never blame them for choosing the best option. It’s up to us to disallow it. Kinda like tax credits and capital gains exemptions… same logic… if allowed, people will use those… if it’s harmful, let’s just disallow it.

[harls]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Only minus 15. So warm!

It's funny how you don't even realize how cold it is anymore. Here minus 5 is already panicking most people. Air traffic at CDG and Orly get largely affected with only just a small freeze of minus 2 and a few snowflakes. Last year some people were stranded in their cars all night on freeways in the western suburb after barely half an inch of snowfall.

Dude. People wear shorts here when it's -10.

Right now people on the prairies are calling me a wimp for using such a warm temperature for shorts.

This doesn't even exist in eastern Canada (and that is not an electric car).



Plugged-in car by Rebecca, on Flickr

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Only minus 15. So warm!

It's funny how you don't even realize how cold it is anymore. Here minus 5 is already panicking most people. Air traffic at CDG and Orly get largely affected with only just a small freeze of minus 2 and a few snowflakes. Last year some people were stranded in their cars all night on freeways in the western suburb after barely half an inch of snowfall.

It’s always about what you’re used to. Of course snow will paralyze your city if you’re not equipped for it. Same with cold. Same with wind: in FL I’ll shrug off a direct hit from a Cat 1 storm as relatively harmless (maybe a few tree limbs downed at worst) while in Sherbrooke it would likely destroy half my buildings. The standards are not the same at all.

-5C in my area of FL, pipes would explode everywhere; in Quebec we’re fine even down to -30C. (Pipes start exploding when we get around -35 here. Meanwhile I’m sure -35 would do zero damage in Yakutsk.)