Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The solution to everything was to keep all those sturdy young habitant women pregnant, barefoot and in the kitchen.

There's a lot to be said about women in the kitchen.

Sometimes I wonder how it must have been in the 1950s, coming back home from work and having the wife putting your slippers on and putting (homemade and very good) dinner on the table, no dish washing to do afterwards, only reading the newspapers in the couch. La belle vie.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Montreal would not be the metropolis of all of Canada unless it was a legitimate bilingual city. At one time, this was it's destiny, but, the PQ, Bill 101 and a couple of referenda put an end to that.

Which is too bad, because I think Montreal is a more interesting city than Toronto. It would have done well as the NYC of Canada.

In fairness Montréal's destiny as Canada's metropolis ended before the PQ days. It was already over by 1960. Blame Toronto for that!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There's nothing wrong with a healthy invigorating climate. It puts hair on your chest.

That's why Wisconsin is booming and Florida is losing inhabitants...

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Well Montreal should get Washington NYC climate by mid century. That is still cold but it hasn't stopped 15 million people from living there. I know French people are extra soft though so maybe the few weeks less winter on either end will help migration.

I'm not sure climate change will be big enough to change the situation. If NYC was Francophone and immigration was totally free, I'm not sure you'd have millions of French people moving there, whereas I'm quite certain millions of French people would move to a Francophone California with freedom of immigration.

Plus even in the worst climate warming scenario, Montréal would still get its few weeks in hell at minus 10 in Winter. It's just summer would also become suffocating.

Also, one thing 99.9% of French people don't appreciate about Montréal is they don't realize how southerly it is, meaning much more southern light than in northern France. Due to the cold Canadian weathers, most French people imagine Montréal must be as north as Stockholm, when in fact it's almost as south as Bordeaux. The grayness of weather in northern Europe in winter is something people need to experience to understand. For example in the past 7 days in Paris we've had almost constant gray and overcast weather. Utterly depressing! I think most French people imagine that Montréal is just the same, and even worse.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I wonder if Bill 101 and the exodus had never happened it would be much more attractive to migrants from France as a place you can work on International scale but with French at home. Totally understanding this would make Montreal less welcoming for the arriving retail worker hopeful from Chicoutimi. And of course would make independence impossible.

Unlikely, otherwise Toronto would be currently full of French people, which isn't the case.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes. Now a key difference between Belgium and Canada and another major factor in the constant minorization of francophones here is immigration.

Canada has almost always had appreciable immigration, and this immigration never contributed to the francophone population in any significant way until about 20-30 years ago. And even so the gains are reasonably modest. Whereas in Belgium they had less immigration but a lot of it still benefited the francophone share of the country. Thinking of people like Claude Barzotti or Salvatore Adamo, or even Lara Fabian who eventually ended up in Quebec.

Even in Quebec immigration (and even non-anglophone immigration) served to reduce the francophone share of the population historically, and has grown the anglophone population a lot well beyond the WASP and Irish origins of the group.

Immigration numbers for Canada as whole are quite striking in the 1910s especially, keeping in mind the total population of the country at the time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_immigration_statistics#Annual_immigration_and_rate

Lots of Haitians and Lebanese migrated to Canada (concentrated in Quebec) more than 30 years ago. Most Haitians acculturated to the French speaking majority, as did most Lebanese (the first wave was primarily Christian Lebanese, many of whom had advanced education, which was usually in French back in Lebanon).

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The anglicization of Montreal is not that remote a possibility - past, present or future.

Believe it or not, Montréal was, for a short period, majority English speaking. There was a short period between around 1830 to the 1870's where anglophones enjoyed a thin majority in Montréal.

https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/IJSL.2007.023/html?lang=en

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The grayness of weather in northern Europe in winter is something people need to experience to understand.

YES.

I didn't know how much different it would be before coming here.

[kool maudit]

Sometimes, the best situations can't be maintained as they are not solid in and of themselves. Like how the fruit ripens a bit after being picked. They are points on a graph showing a transition.

Montreal's 1960s moment was one of these, as the city's primary public language moved from English to French. Perhaps there could be another such idyll in the future if Montreal reverts from French to English.

But make no mistake: there is no holding the "bilingual" line so many want. It would be a point between one dominion and the other. An idyll.

[MolsonExport]

Montreal rightly is and should remain a predominately French-speaking city, but there is room for a vibrant Anglo community. We helped build this great city as well. We are not the enemy.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

YES.

I didn't know how much different it would be before coming here.

Fun fact: I was checking on a map, Vieux Montréal is at the exact same latitude as a point 5 km north of the city center of... Milan!!!

This is something no French people could even imagine. When we think of moving to Milan, we think of moving "to the south", almost the Med, but nearly all French people would think of moving to Montréal as equal to moving to Stockholm or Moscow.

I think the Québécois government should advertise more the southerly location of Montréal with the French public. That could push some to move there. I mean, the thought of moving to Milan, even a cold Milan in winter, would certainly be pleasant to many French people. But this is not at all what they have in mind when they think of Montréal.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Montreal rightly is and should remain a predominately French-speaking city, but there is room for a vibrant Anglo community. We helped build this great city as well. We are not the enemy.

Some people would argue that you are.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Fun fact: I was checking on a map, Vieux Montréal is at the exact same latitude as a point 5 km north of the city center of... Milan!!!

This is something no French people could even imagine. When we think of moving to Milan, we think of moving "to the south", almost the Med, but nearly all French people would think of moving to Montréal as equal to moving to Stockholm or Moscow.

I think the Québécois government should advertise more the southerly location of Montréal with the French public. That could push some to move there. I mean, the thought of moving to Milan, even a cold Milan in winter, would certainly be pleasant to many French people. But this is not at all what they have in mind when they think of Montréal.

Canadian winters may be cold and snowy, but, when it is not snowing, it is usually sunny - not at all the perpetual greyness of northern Europe.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Montreal rightly is and should remain a predominately French-speaking city, but there is room for a vibrant Anglo community. We helped build this great city as well. We are not the enemy.

I've been a long-time (really long-time) believer in that, but as Kool's post above yours alluded, it's becoming less and less certain that it's actually possible to have both.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Also, one thing 99.9% of French people don't appreciate about Montréal is they don't realize how southerly it is, meaning much more southern light than in northern France. Due to the cold Canadian weathers, most French people imagine Montréal must be as north as Stockholm, when in fact it's almost as south as Bordeaux. The grayness of weather in northern Europe in winter is something people need to experience to understand. For example in the past 7 days in Paris we've had almost constant gray and overcast weather. Utterly depressing! I think most French people imagine that Montréal is just the same, and even worse.
.

Yes, Paris isn't too bad in the summer even though it's slightly less sunny than Montreal. But Montreal has over 100 hours of sunshine in January and February, whereas Paris is in the 60-80 monthly hours range in the winter.

Montreal is even slightly sunnier than Milan in the winter months.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Believe it or not, Montréal was, for a short period, majority English speaking. There was a short period between around 1830 to the 1870's where anglophones enjoyed a thin majority in Montréal.

https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/IJSL.2007.023/html?lang=en

Pretty sure you knew that I knew that.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Canadian winters may be cold and snowy, but, when it is not snowing, it is usually sunny - not at all the perpetual greyness of northern Europe.

You're taking Brisavoine too seriously... Don't let yourself be impressed by him.
He's doing it on purpose, that's his whole game on here.

I bet even in Norway or Finland, they frequently have cloudless skies in the winter. But winter in their northern regions is dark, so you have to be tough or have a serious reason for living out there.

You have to be determined to live up north. That being said, contrary to common acceptance, cold is easier to live in than extreme heat.
When it's cold, you just put a coat on and you deal with it. When it's too hot, the only thing you can rely on is air conditioning, which makes it worse cause it's power-greedy and releases heat to the outside, and you stay indoor.
Plus, you have to face crazy flooding in the Fall like they're doing in Spain as we speak.

Brisavoine thinks air conditioning and cars are something advanced. That's the crucial points on which I agree to disagree with him.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The tragedy of Québec is its climate (although I know the Québécois would vehemently deny it and eagerly embrace its "winters"). .

I think it's an exaggeration that people here vehemently deny the severity of our winters and eagerly embrace them.

Annual all-inclusive holidays to places down south like Cayo Coco and Punta Cana are close to being a national obsession.

Though sure most of the people who travel down south also partake in winter activities when they are here at home.

I think even the people who hate winter passionately do recognize that it makes us who we are. We wouldn't be the same as a people without it, as it has shaped us so much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OELVeKYFFPA

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mousquet

You're taking Brisavoine too seriously... Don't let yourself be impressed by him.
He's doing it on purpose, that's his whole game on here.

I bet even in Norway or Finland, they frequently have cloudless skies in the winter. But winter in their northern regions is dark, so you have to be tough or have a serious reason for living out there.

You have to be determined to live up north. That being said, contrary to common acceptance, cold is easier to live in than extreme heat.
When it's cold, you just put a coat on and you deal with it. When it's too hot, the only thing you can rely on is air conditioning, which makes it worse cause it's power-greedy and releases heat to the outside, and you stay indoor.
Plus, you have to face crazy flooding in the Fall like they're doing in Spain as we speak.

Brisavoine thinks air conditioning and cars are something advanced. That's the crucial points on which I agree to disagree with him.

I have a friend who lives in Bergen, Norway, which is a pretty attractive small city. But... 13.5 hours of sunshine in the entire month of December!

EDIT: At the airport, it's 12!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, Paris isn't too bad in the summer even though it's slightly less sunny than Montreal. But Montreal has over 100 hours of sunshine in January and February, whereas Paris is in the 60-80 monthly hours range in the winter.

Montreal is even slightly sunnier than Milan in the winter months.

It's not just the number of hours of sunshine, it's also the intensity of the light. 1 hour of sunshine in winter in Paris is not the same as 1 hour of sunshine in winter in Lyon where it's more intense in terms of luminosity, and downtown Montréal is 25 km south of Lyon. But like I've said, it's not something that people here realize.

[big T]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've been a long-time (really long-time) believer in that, but as Kool's post above yours alluded, it's becoming less and less certain that it's actually possible to have both.

I think Molson’s "we built this place too" referring to the historic Anglo community is also missing the point to an extent. The concern around language nowadays is largely about fairly recent (as in 1-2 generations) and current immigrants. Like, Vietnamese kids raised here who end up identifying as anglophone even though they’re near perfectly bilingual, and increasingly people using bogus study programs to end up in low wage customer service jobs (making the issue all the more visible and touchy). Even though I think those are usually overblown, they undeniably exist and need to be addressed.

I suppose you could argue that these more recent arrivals are in fact the contemporary torch bearers of a continuing anglophone presence, but that, I think, is unrealistic. Language territoriality is a thing most everywhere for a reason, and the fact is here and now, it’s French. That is the culture immigrants should expect to join within the borders of this polity.