Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You're the one with such a poor attitude towards your English cousins.

We do not recognize the English as our "cousins". Usually that word in France is used to refer to the Québécois (which I tend to find a bit irritating too, as it's a tired old cliché). For some reasons the Belgians or the Swiss are never called "nos cousins", but the Québécois always are.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I think this was more of a case of the Anglo-Norman monarchy and aristocracy trying one last time to retain their continental possessions.

Don't forget, the language of the English court up until the early 15th century was French, not English. I think they were quite sentimental about their continental territories.

Not by the time of Joan of Arc anymore. They spoke English, and it was clearly seen as a foreign invasion. In fact most historians trace the origins of the national sentiment in France to the English invasion of the 1410s.

The English wreaked mind-boggling havoc in France, killing, looting, ruining entire regions. For example all the Paris Region was depopulated, most of its villages destroyed, the people fleeing to the walled cities. What the English did in North America and India (or even Ireland) was nothing compared to what they did in France. France lost nearly 40% of its population due to the English invasion.

You can read the excellent series of books by Jonathan Sumption about the Hundred Years War. It's the most detailed and riveting account of the war published in English. His recently published volume 5 here: https://www.amazon.fr/Hundred-Years-War-Vol-Illusion-ebook/dp/B0CG77S4GX

When reading his books, one is shocked by the level of carnage the English committed in France. The chevauchées (large scale raids) by the Black Prince and other members of the English royal family across France were not very different from Nazi Germany's invasion of Russia: basically killing all the people they encountered on a 20 miles front, burning all the villages, destroying all harvests, uprooting all trees, etc. Hundreds of miles of France were burnt to ashes in that way.

These events are now very old, so most French people today have only a faint (or quaint) notion of it, but back in the 15th century the English were absolutely hated in France. For 100 years, most of the French population lost either their home, some family members, or their source of income. These scorched earth tactics were used by the English because they were too few and didn't have the means to conquer the walled cities, so they destroyed all the countrysides where most of the people lived to make the country uninhabitable. Like I've said, not very different from Nazi Germany's tactics in Russia.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The English wreaked mind-boggling havoc in France, killing, looting, ruining entire regions. For example all the Paris Region was depopulated, most of its villages destroyed, the people fleeing to the walled cities. What the English did in North America and India (or even Ireland) was nothing compared to what they did in France. France lost nearly 40% of its population due to the English invasion.

You can read the excellent series of books by Jonathan Sumption about the Hundred Years War. It's the most detailed and riveting account of the war published in English. His recently published volume 5 here: https://www.amazon.fr/Hundred-Years-War-Vol-Illusion-ebook/dp/B0CG77S4GX

When reading his books, one is shocked by the level of carnage the English committed in France. The chevauchées (large scale raids) by the Black Prince and other members of the English royal family across France were not very different from Nazi Germany's invasion of Russia: basically killing all the people they encountered on a 20 miles front, burning all the villages, destroying all harvests, uprooting all trees, etc. Hundreds of miles of France were burnt to ashes in that way.

So, I was right!

A drunken English soccer hooligan did kick your dog (at least metaphorically).

You've been nursing a 500 year old grudge against the English (and by extension the entire anglosphere, including English Canada). As far as you are concerned, we are akin to Nazis.

This is why you are wasting everyones time on this forum, agitating for Quebec independance from the rest of the country. You're looking for payback!!!

Perhaps you should consider therapy...........

What happens in Canada is none of your business.

[kool maudit]

There is something naive about being so affronted by a chauvinistic Frenchman.

The English and the French are supposed to contend with one another. It's like Swedes and Danes.

[New Brisavoine]

MonctonRad is not even English for that matter. But what this forum has taught me (and not just this forum but also SSC) is that some Anglophone Canadians are "more royalist than the king". This is not something that is usually thought about the Canadians in Europe, where we imagine them very liberal/post-modern and largely detached from the UK.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

The English and the French are supposed to contend with one another.

That's a quite a bit old-fashioned, though.

Sometimes, I like to keep the old rivalry up for the fun of it, as a joke between us. Like the "Rosbifs" vs the "Frogs". It's something tongue-in-cheek between us, you see? But I wouldn't take it seriously.
In fact, the English are usually pleased when we show a friendly and respectful attitude to them, and I find it cute of them.
They're a funny cool people overall.

Only, their establishment might be badly self-centered and arrogant, but to be honest, much of the French upper class is quite the same in that respect.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

MonctonRad is not even English for that matter. But what this forum has taught me (and not just this forum but also SSC) is that some Anglophone Canadians are "more royalist than the king". This is not something that is usually thought about the Canadians in Europe, where we imagine them very liberal/post-modern and largely detached from the UK.

In Quebec the monarchist British side of Anglo-Canada is generally over-estimated, and sometimes used to portray them as old-fashioned, backward and lacking their own identity.

The real truth lies somewhere in between. Anglo-Canadians are more attached to the British monarchy than they like to admit, but not as much as Québécois think they are.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In Quebec the monarchist British side of Anglo-Canada is generally over-estimated, and sometimes used to portray them as old-fashioned, backward and lacking their own identity.

The real truth lies somewhere in between. Anglo-Canadians are more attached to the British monarchy than they like to admit, but not as much as Québécois think they are.

They (at least old stock) also don't like to admit that they're very proud of Canada's colonial history. Don't know if that pendulum will ever swing back. Is that "The Maple Leaf Forever" I hear softly in the background?

[Acajack]

Regarding immigration and diversity in France, it is said that France has more different surnames than any country in the world, with something like 900,000 different surnames. This is partly due to very diverse immigration from various sources starting fairly early there (compared to most countries that later became immigration nations). Also due to the different peoples with their own surnames that came to be part of France (Bretons, Basques, Alsatians, Flemish, etc.) and that kept their names for the most part and did not Frenchify them.

To French-speaking Canadians this is a bit shocking when first encountered because we are very "Monsieur Dupont" in terms of surnames. Though this has been slowly changing.

[MolsonExport]

Most common surnames in Canada

1 Smith 192,145 1:192
2 Brown 108,859 1:338
3 Tremblay 106,668 1:345
4 Martin 91,680 1:402
5 Roy 90,417 1:408
6 Gagnon 85,120 1:433
7 Lee 83,424 1:442
8 Wilson 82,768 1:445
9 Johnson 79,492 1:464
10 MacDonald 78,766 1:468
11 Taylor 71,525 1:515
12 Campbell 71,068 1:518
13 Anderson 70,365 1:524
14 Jones 68,210 1:540
15 Leblanc 67,933 1:542
16 Cote 66,453 1:554
17 Williams 63,729 1:578
18 Miller 63,126 1:584
19 Thompson 62,999 1:585
20 Gauthier 61,033 1:604
21 White 56,772 1:649
22 Morin 56,241 1:655
23 Wong 55,165 1:668
24 Young 53,994 1:682
25 Bouchard 53,561 1:688
26 Scott 51,132 1:721
27 Stewart 50,758 1:726
28 Pelletier 48,323 1:762
29 Lavoie 47,636 1:773
30 Robinson 47,171 1:781
31 Moore 46,790 1:787
32 Belanger 46,260 1:796
33 Singh 45,715 1:806
34 Fortin 44,758 1:823
35 Levesque 44,512 1:828
36 Chan 44,491 1:828
37 Reid 43,241 1:852
38 Ross 43,175 1:853
39 Clark 42,977 1:857
40 Johnston 41,674 1:884
41 Walker 41,592 1:886
42 Thomas 41,057 1:897
43 King 40,670 1:906
44 Gagne 40,598 1:908
45 Bergeron 39,915 1:923
46 Li 39,472 1:933
47 Boucher 39,307 1:937
48 Landry 38,960 1:946
49 Poirier 38,328 1:961
50 Murray 38,199 1:965
51 Murphy 38,061 1:968
52 McDonald 37,703 1:977
53 Wright 37,603 1:980
54 Richard 37,363 1:986
55 Mitchell 37,292 1:988
56 Girard 37,173 1:991
57 Clarke 36,520 1:1,009
58 Davis 35,809 1:1,029
59 Simard 35,622 1:1,034
60 Kelly 35,114 1:1,049
61 Lewis 35,038 1:1,052
62 Graham 34,951 1:1,054
63 Caron 34,899 1:1,056
64 Wang 34,700 1:1,062
65 Fraser 34,669 1:1,063
66 Fournier 34,299 1:1,074
67 Jackson 34,130 1:1,080
68 Beaulieu 34,086 1:1,081
69 Wood 33,348 1:1,105
70 Hall 33,028 1:1,116
71 Baker 32,923 1:1,119
72 Chen 32,881 1:1,121
73 Hill 32,716 1:1,126
74 Harris 32,407 1:1,137
75 Green 32,252 1:1,142
76 Roberts 31,895 1:1,155
77 Lapointe 31,411 1:1,173
78 Bell 31,373 1:1,174
79 Ouellet 31,193 1:1,181
80 Patel 31,161 1:1,182
81 Watson 31,068 1:1,186
82 Kennedy 30,952 1:1,190
83 Cloutier 30,925 1:1,191
84 Robertson 30,875 1:1,193
85 Allen 30,717 1:1,200
86 Lefebvre 30,347 1:1,214
87 Nguyen 30,171 1:1,221
88 Hamilton 29,834 1:1,235
89 Desjardins 29,191 1:1,262
90 Adams 28,987 1:1,271
91 Gill 28,836 1:1,278
92 Khan 28,804 1:1,279
93 Cameron 28,724 1:1,283
94 Morrison 28,707 1:1,284
95 Dube 28,519 1:1,292
96 Evans 28,449 1:1,295
97 Grant 28,249 1:1,304
98 Nadeau 28,109 1:1,311
99 Zhang 27,849 1:1,323
100 Peters 27,705 1:1,330
101 Armstrong 27,703 1:1,330
102 Phillips 27,536 1:1,338
103 Hebert 27,422 1:1,344
104 Cook 27,420 1:1,344
105 Poulin 27,358 1:1,347
106 Liu 27,019 1:1,364
107 Michaud 27,010 1:1,364
108 Kim 26,966 1:1,366
109 Martel 26,634 1:1,383
110 Edwards 26,457 1:1,393


https://forebears.io/canada/surnames

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Regarding immigration and diversity in France, it is said that France has more different surnames than any country in the world, with something like 900,000 different surnames. This is partly due to very diverse immigration from various sources starting fairly early there

No, not at all. That wealth of family names predates modern immigration (and family names did not exist back when the great migrations of the 1st millennium took place).

The reason for that wealth of family names is:
1- France was by far the most populated country in Europe when family names appeared shortly after the year 1000, and the population hasn't grown as much as other European countries, so you have very many lineages in France, so as a result many family names. England, Germany, Spain, for comparison, had small populations when family names appeared, and these countries grew tremendously after 1700, so you've got many people descending from few people, with all the same family names.

2- France is the largest country in Europe outside Russia (I don't count Ukraine anymore), and it encompasses vastly different regions, Germanic, Gallic, Celtic, Basque, Latin, etc. So that adds a wealth of family names. For example one common family name across Europe is "Smith", given to people who were blacksmiths in the Middle Ages (Schmidt in Germany, Smet in the Dutch-speaking areas, Ferrari in Italy, Herrero in Spain). All these countries have just one version of the name (or sometimes a spelling variant, like Schmidt vs Schmitt, Herrero vs Ferrero), but France has several totally different family names which mean "blacksmiths", that is Lefèvre/Lefebvre in northern France, Fabre/Favre in southern France, Schmitt in Alsace, Smet in French Flanders, Le Goff in Brittany, Arostegui/Arosteguy in the French Basque country, Ferrer in Roussillon (French Catalonia), Ferracci in Corsica.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Most common surnames in Canada

1 Smith 192,145 1:192
2 Brown 108,859 1:338
3 Tremblay 106,668 1:345
4 Martin 91,680 1:402
5 Roy 90,417 1:408
6 Gagnon 85,120 1:433
7 Lee 83,424 1:442
8 Wilson 82,768 1:445
9 Johnson 79,492 1:464
10 MacDonald 78,766 1:468
11 Taylor 71,525 1:515
12 Campbell 71,068 1:518
13 Anderson 70,365 1:524
14 Jones 68,210 1:540
15 Leblanc 67,933 1:542
16 Cote 66,453 1:554
17 Williams 63,729 1:578
18 Miller 63,126 1:584
19 Thompson 62,999 1:585
20 Gauthier 61,033 1:604
21 White 56,772 1:649
22 Morin 56,241 1:655
23 Wong 55,165 1:668
24 Young 53,994 1:682
25 Bouchard 53,561 1:688
26 Scott 51,132 1:721
27 Stewart 50,758 1:726
28 Pelletier 48,323 1:762
29 Lavoie 47,636 1:773
30 Robinson 47,171 1:781
31 Moore 46,790 1:787
32 Belanger 46,260 1:796
33 Singh 45,715 1:806
34 Fortin 44,758 1:823
35 Levesque 44,512 1:828
36 Chan 44,491 1:828
37 Reid 43,241 1:852
38 Ross 43,175 1:853
39 Clark 42,977 1:857
40 Johnston 41,674 1:884
41 Walker 41,592 1:886
42 Thomas 41,057 1:897
43 King 40,670 1:906
44 Gagne 40,598 1:908
45 Bergeron 39,915 1:923
46 Li 39,472 1:933
47 Boucher 39,307 1:937
48 Landry 38,960 1:946
49 Poirier 38,328 1:961
50 Murray 38,199 1:965
51 Murphy 38,061 1:968
52 McDonald 37,703 1:977
53 Wright 37,603 1:980
54 Richard 37,363 1:986
55 Mitchell 37,292 1:988
56 Girard 37,173 1:991
57 Clarke 36,520 1:1,009
58 Davis 35,809 1:1,029
59 Simard 35,622 1:1,034
60 Kelly 35,114 1:1,049
61 Lewis 35,038 1:1,052
62 Graham 34,951 1:1,054
63 Caron 34,899 1:1,056
64 Wang 34,700 1:1,062
65 Fraser 34,669 1:1,063
66 Fournier 34,299 1:1,074
67 Jackson 34,130 1:1,080
68 Beaulieu 34,086 1:1,081
69 Wood 33,348 1:1,105
70 Hall 33,028 1:1,116
71 Baker 32,923 1:1,119
72 Chen 32,881 1:1,121
73 Hill 32,716 1:1,126
74 Harris 32,407 1:1,137
75 Green 32,252 1:1,142
76 Roberts 31,895 1:1,155
77 Lapointe 31,411 1:1,173
78 Bell 31,373 1:1,174
79 Ouellet 31,193 1:1,181
80 Patel 31,161 1:1,182
81 Watson 31,068 1:1,186
82 Kennedy 30,952 1:1,190
83 Cloutier 30,925 1:1,191
84 Robertson 30,875 1:1,193
85 Allen 30,717 1:1,200
86 Lefebvre 30,347 1:1,214
87 Nguyen 30,171 1:1,221
88 Hamilton 29,834 1:1,235
89 Desjardins 29,191 1:1,262
90 Adams 28,987 1:1,271
91 Gill 28,836 1:1,278
92 Khan 28,804 1:1,279
93 Cameron 28,724 1:1,283
94 Morrison 28,707 1:1,284
95 Dube 28,519 1:1,292
96 Evans 28,449 1:1,295
97 Grant 28,249 1:1,304
98 Nadeau 28,109 1:1,311
99 Zhang 27,849 1:1,323
100 Peters 27,705 1:1,330
101 Armstrong 27,703 1:1,330
102 Phillips 27,536 1:1,338
103 Hebert 27,422 1:1,344
104 Cook 27,420 1:1,344
105 Poulin 27,358 1:1,347
106 Liu 27,019 1:1,364
107 Michaud 27,010 1:1,364
108 Kim 26,966 1:1,366
109 Martel 26,634 1:1,383
110 Edwards 26,457 1:1,393


https://forebears.io/canada/surnames

Thanks for this.

Martin can actually be a French Canadian surname or a name from the British Isles (sorry guys), so there is likely a doubling up there of people from both origins. Same goes for Roy. Can't that be a name from the British Isles?

Also, I see "Richard" on the list which is an Acadien surname that is also very present in Québec (ie Maurice Richard). I wonder if they're lumping together Richard and the classic anglo name "Richards".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

They (at least old stock) also don't like to admit that they're very proud of Canada's colonial history. Don't know if that pendulum will ever swing back. Is that "The Maple Leaf Forever" I hear softly in the background?

I know.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Thanks for this.

Martin can actually be a French Canadian surname or a name from the British Isles (sorry guys), so there is likely a doubling up there of people from both origins. Same goes for Roy. Can't that be a name from the British Isles?

Also, I see "Richard" on the list which is an Acadien surname that is also very present in Québec (ie Maurice Richard). I wonder if they're lumping together Richard and the classic anglo name "Richards".

True enough.

I have know a couple of dozen people by the last name of Martin over the years. Almost all of whom were French Canadian, or descended from French Canadian. I've never met a Roy who was not Quebecois/Acadien.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

To French-speaking Canadians this is a bit shocking when first encountered because we are very "Monsieur Dupont" in terms of surnames. Though this has been slowly changing.

Yes, that's because the French Canadians, like the English, Germans, Spaniards, etc, grew tremendously over time, and they all descend from few people originally, so they all have the same family names.

Another characteristic of the French Canadians is their most frequent family names are not at all the most frequent family names in France, because so few French people migrated to Canada, and even fewer people are the male ancestors of today's French Canadians, so their family names are not statistically significant, they do not correspond to the most common French family names. The reason why Tremblay or Gagnon are the most common French Canadian names, whereas they are rather negligible family names in France, is because of pure randomness. It just happened a Mr Tremblay and a Mr Gagnon in the 17th century, by sheer luck, were the ancestors of a disproportionate number of French Canadians.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Thanks for this.

Martin can actually be a French Canadian surname or a name from the British Isles (sorry guys), so there is likely a doubling up there of people from both origins.

Yes, Martin is largely an English family name in Canada. It isn't the 2nd most common French Canadian family name.

I made this map long ago. The 2 most common family names in each department of France in the late 19th century (before modern mass migrations), as well as in Wallonia and Québec. For France this is based on INSEE's database of family names (all the French family names were counted in every decade since 1891). No department of France shares the same 2 most common names as Québec.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yes, Martin is largely an English family name in Canada. It isn't the 2nd most common French Canadian family name.

I made this map long ago. The 2 most common family names in each department of France in the late 19th century (before modern mass migrations), as well as in Wallonia and Québec. For France this is based on INSEE's database of family names (all the French family names were counted in every decade since 1891). No department of France shares the same 2 most common names as Québec.

About three quarters of more of those names are quite common in French Canada. Although some have slightly different spellings. Some are basically non-existent except among recent immigrants from France. For example Faure which I know is common in France.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yes, that's because the French Canadians, like the English, Germans, Spaniards, etc, grew tremendously over time, and they all descend from few people originally, so they all have the same family names.

Another characteristic of the French Canadians is their most frequent family names are not at all the most frequent family names in France, because so few French people migrated to Canada, and even fewer people are the male ancestors of today's French Canadians, so their family names are not statistically significant, they do not correspond to the most common French family names. The reason why Tremblay or Gagnon are the most common French Canadian names, whereas they are rather negligible family names in France, is because of pure randomness. It just happened a Mr Tremblay and a Mr Gagnon in the 17th century, by sheer luck, were the ancestors of a disproportionate number of French Canadians.

A popular slag against French Canadians is that we're all inbred and the people who do this often point to our surnames.

The truth is that we don't have any more surname concentration than many other peoples around the world, that polite Canadians would of course never call inbred. Such as the Danes for example. Or just think of the Koreans or the Vietnamese who have a significant surname concentration (Kim and Park or Nguyen).

[MolsonExport]

Also, most of the initial settlers from France were male, so many mated with women from the local First Nations tribes (with children evidently taking the father's surname). A large proportion of French Canadians have some Native ancestry (as well as some Irish ancestry).

[MolsonExport]

One percent Native ancestry can be understood as if everybody shared a Native American ancestor 6–7 generations ago. Indeed, a recent study based on four Quebec regional populations indicates that between 53 and 78% of Quebecers have at least one Native American ancestor in their genealogy

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3680396/

I could definitely see this Native influence in the phenotype traits of some of my former Quebecoise girlfriends.