Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Lots of good points here, though probably more suited to a thread with a more cross-Canada scope.

But not sure if this discussion would be welcome there, even if it's right next door.

So I guess in a way, it is kind of a metaphor for Quebec in Canada!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

There has always been a bit of a disconnect between what Anglo-Canadians thought their immigration policy was, versus what it actually was. I think this first occurred to me around 2012-ish when the US was having some domestic drama about illegal immigrants and I was in a room full of Canadians who were talking about how evil those Americans were for how mean they are to the poor undocumented folks and how we don't do that here in Canada. Meanwhile Canada had, prior to JT messing it up, a system of zero-tolerance towards illegal immigration that blue Americans would think of as evil and awful. Heck, we regularly deported (and still do) the Canadian born children of illegal immigrants, something that the average Democratic Party voter would think is beyond-the-pale evil.

Anglo-Canadian society always thought of their immigration policy as being like the Lazarus poem - bringing the "poor and wretched" to Canada for a better life. In reality, our system was highly controlled, and highly selective. It made us think we were some uniquely tolerant people (a sort of "progressive jingoism" if you can call it that ) and laughed at those racist Americans and Europeans for complaining about migrants, but in reality we were benefitting from carefully controlled migration that prevented so many of the issues our allies were experiencing.

It was probably only a matter of time before some politician moved our system closer to what the average uninformed white Canadian thought it was to score brownie points with the ignorant public. JT just happened to be that politician. And now we're experiencing the consequences, and realizing that, hey, immigration only really works if it's carefully regulated - the Lazarus model actually kinda sucks.

This excellent post actually speaks quite evocatively to the capture of the Canadian mind by American ideals. There is actually a widely-held view that not only is a totally American-born concept in fact ours, but we go even further and think that we here have improved upon it, or at least truly embody its spirit whereas the Americans somehow no longer do.

Could Canadians in fact be the true Americans of the 21st century?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Astute observations, it's exactly the tide I see on the ground in the GTA. Smug Canadians believing that it's Canadian exceptionalism carrying the day, when it was obvious Anglo-Canada avoided the worst consequences because of a strictly regimented immigration system. A highly celebrated system that has been dismantled overnight by Justin. The Americans must be feeling some schadenfreude for the mess JT has created north of the border.





It's this pathological adherence to Canadian exceptionalism that blinds the Toronto elite from acknowledging the realities of the flood of NPRs, i.e. Ontario has brought in millions of low-quality low skilled labour (who for the most part are highly indebted paying for fake LMIAs or useless Conestoga degrees), and there's no realistic support system to integrate them or turn them into productive citizens (which would be really expensive, and literally impossible to achieve with the GTA's extremely weak labour market). The elites seem convinced we'll never see a Seine-Saint-Denis pop up, but there's no convincing argument Ontario has the institutions to prevent it from happening.

The foundations of Seine-St-Denis are now there in the GTA and other major Canadian metro areas. All that is needed for it to germinate is a reasonably significant economic downturn where there is less prosperity to go around and everyone starts pulling the ever-shrinking blanket to cover themselves and uncover others in the process.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Yeah, really, that's an understatement.

Right-wing music of that kind is crappy, cheesy and shameful in the French-speaking world.

Frankly, the leftists are much better at it and culture in general. That's at least one thing they're helpful to, in my opinion anyway.

Except for a few songs, Michel Sardou's music isn't really right wing at all.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The diversity is not the primary cause of the problem (which is simply high migration - many of the problems would still be the case if this was large scale domestic migration from within Canada to the GTA) - but it aggravates it to some extent, I think. It's harder to feel social solidarity with people who are different, which makes societal issues more difficult to address.

There's a reason why historically, societies that are highly diverse can do very well when things are going good, but tend to do very badly when the shit hits the fan. I think how it actually works is that diversity works well when there's some common glue binding it all together, and in too many cases historically, "prosperity" was that glue, so when it goes away...

The ROC needs to have some potentially difficult conversations about what our values are if we are going to prosper. And it's imperative that this conversation doesn't get taken over by the racists, which is what will probably happen if the non-racists refuse to have it.

I've long said that Canada's socio-cultural identity was way too dependent upon the assumption of evenly-shared prosperity, and that politeness, civility, tolerance, and the whole "sorry" thing and niceness were simply traits of a society where you didn't need to be a dog-eat-dog asshole to survive.

I still believe all of that, though perhaps as a typical Canadian I also assumed that prosperity was forever, and so didn't consider how so much of our social peace actually hinges on it as well.

We've really built a society for never-ending good times.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But there is also "General American English" which features an accent exhibited by over half of the US population, and which most linguists consider virtually identical to Standard Canadian English.

You need to be quite lucky and have Canadians or Americans happen to drop certain very specific cues typical of their home country in order to tell a speaker of either apart.

I used to work with 'general American English' people from places you would consider the same accent as a 'standard Canadian' and it was quite easy to see the difference.

Usually a dead give away is uh-huh.

Canadian - 'Thanks a lot for your help, talk to you soon!'
American - 'Uh huh'.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

It was probably only a matter of time before some politician moved our system closer to what the average uninformed white Canadian thought it was to score brownie points with the ignorant public. JT just happened to be that politician. And now we're experiencing the consequences, and realizing that, hey, immigration only really works if it's carefully regulated - the Lazarus model actually kinda sucks.

Imagine, if Québec had seceded in 1995, Justin Trudeau would never have been prime minister of Canada.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

The elites seem convinced we'll never see a Seine-Saint-Denis pop up, but there's no convincing argument Ontario has the institutions to prevent it from happening.

Seine-Saint-Denis has a total GDP of 76 billion USD (that's 1/3 the size of British Columbia's economy, and larger than Saskatchewan, which is 64 bn USD, Manitoba, which is 56 bn USD, or Nova Scotia, which is 35 bn USD).

Seine-Saint-Denis also has a GDP per capita of 45,700 USD, which is higher than British Columbia (45,550 USD), Québec (40,850 USD), or Nova Scotia (36,200 USD), this despite the fact the GDP per capita of Seine-Saint-Denis is artificially lowered by outflows of commuters to Paris and Hauts-de-Seine.

All these figures are for the year 2019, last year before Covid. Things have probably gone worse in Canada since then (per capita) due to the large inflows of low skilled immigrants.

People always have this cliché view of Seine-Saint-Denis, not even realizing it's a major economic powerhouse, 1/3 of British Columbia's economy concentrated in a territory smaller than Mississauga (Mississauga has 292 km² whereas Seine-Saint-Denis has 236 km², and I doubt Mississauga hosts the equivalent of 1/3 of British Columbia's economy).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Except for a few songs, Michel Sardou's music isn't really right wing at all.

He's viewed as right-wing in France, but then France's media and culture world is so much to the left that he would in fact be considered a very, very mild Republican in the US, the sort of anti-Trump soft Republicans. Here's that's quasi-far-right.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Except for a few songs, Michel Sardou's music isn't really right wing at all.

The leftists would call him a misogynistic fascist anyway, lol.
The kind of conservative man that would stick to old Catholic patriarchy, while women seek empowerment nowadays.

I'll tell you about his only interesting song.
This from 1973:

• Video Link

Brisavoine won't understand, but my own dad was a dangerous roadhog (reckless driver), whether he'd be drunk or not, so I know what this song means.
I even posted and translated it in the music thread of the skybar some time ago, because it must be the creepiest (and best) song about reckless driving ever.
People should act wise when they handle a steering wheel.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Imagine, if Québec had seceded in 1995, Justin Trudeau would never have been prime minister of Canada.

In that scenario Preston Manning probably would have been elected PM in 1997, and I don't think I would have liked that.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Seine-Saint-Denis also has a GDP per capita of 45,700 USD, which is higher than British Columbia (45,550 USD), Québec (40,850 USD), or Nova Scotia (36,200 USD), this despite the fact the GDP per capita of Seine-Saint-Denis is artificially lowered by outflows of commuters to Paris and Hauts-de-Seine.

All these figures are for the year 2019, last year before Covid. Things have probably gone worse in Canada since then (per capita) due to the large inflows of low skilled immigrants.

People always have this cliché view of Seine-Saint-Denis, not even realizing it's a major economic powerhouse, 1/3 of British Columbia's economy concentrated in a territory smaller than Mississauga (Mississauga has 292 km² whereas Seine-Saint-Denis has 236 km², and I doubt Mississauga hosts the equivalent of 1/3 of British Columbia's economy).

Not sure what tangent you're going in.GDP per capita for Mississauga and Brampton, the two suburbs in Toronto that faces significant ethnic ghettoization pressures, has per capita GDP of $57K USD and $55K USD respectively. Even though GDP per capita is higher than Seine-Saint-Denis, doesn't mean these two locales are in the clear.

No expects GDP per capita to collapse in Peel region either (which encompasses Mississauga and Brampton), as it remains one of the primary economic engines of the country.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

In that scenario Preston Manning probably would have been elected PM in 1997, and I don't think I would have liked that.

Quebec independence would have blown apart the federal political party dynamics, so it’s uncertain if Prestone would have become PM.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Not sure what tangent you're going in.GDP per capita for Mississauga and Brampton, the two suburbs in Toronto that faces significant ethnic ghettoization pressures, has per capita GDP of $57K USD and $55K USD respectively.

Where are these figures coming from? Statcan doesn't calculate GDP per capita below the provincial level.

[New Brisavoine]

This is what Standard & Poor's says:

Although municipal GDP data are unavailable, we believe Mississauga's GDP per capita is in line with the national level at about US$54,300, based on the city's high incomes.

https://disclosure.spglobal.com/ratings/en/regulatory/article/-/view/type/HTML/id/3248350

That US$54,300 figure seems to refer to the GDP per capita of Canada in 2024, at market exchange rates (not PPP). In 2019 the GDP per capita of Canada was US$46,430. So if Mississauga's GDP per capita is indeed in line with the national level, that means in 2019 it had a GDP per capita about the same as Seine-Saint-Denis.

And Mississauga has only 700,000 inhabitants, as opposed to Seine-Saint-Denis's 1.7 million, so the economy of Seine-Saint-Denis obviously dwarfs the economy of Mississauga. In fact the economy of Seine-Saint-Denis is larger than the economy of all Canadian cities except Toronto, Montréal, and Vancouver. That's just pretty far from the cliché of a sh*thole.

Seine-Saint-Denis hosts the back offices of many international banks and insurance groups, plus part of the Paris CDG airport and the business jet airport Le Bourget (the biggest in Europe, and host of one of the 2 largest airshows in Europe, the other being Farnborough in the UK). It also hosts various universities, as well as the largest logistical parks (warehouses) of Greater Paris, and some of its largest convention centers, as well as the largest film studios and TV studios in France. And it has a public transportation network (subway and commuter trains) that suburbs like Mississauga could only dream of, with close to 100 km of new subway lines currently being bored below Seine-Saint-Denis (lines 15, 16, 17 of the Paris Métro), plus the CDG Express train line u/c that will link CDG to central Paris. Last but not least, the Paris Region has its headquarters and regional council hall located in Seine-Saint-Denis (since 2018), served by the new extension of the automated driverless line 14 of the Paris Métro. There's worse in terms of sh*thole.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

This is what Standard & Poor's says:


That US$54,300 figure seems to refer to the GDP per capita of Canada in 2024, at market exchange rates (not PPP). In 2019 the GDP per capita of Canada was US$46,430. So if Mississauga's GDP per capita is indeed in line with the national level, that means in 2019 it had a GDP per capita about the same as Seine-Saint-Denis.

The City of Mississauga's report indicated that as of Nov 2019, GDP per capita was CAD $77,000, which in today's FX would be around US $57,000. This is charitable, as the CAD right now is lower than its 2019 FX rate. As you probably know, the CAD is a much more volatile currency, and isn't as stable as the EUR.

https://investmississauga.ca/wp-content/...Strategy-2020-25-Strategic-Framework.pdf

And Mississauga has only 700,000 inhabitants, as opposed to Seine-Saint-Denis's 1.7 million, so the economy of Seine-Saint-Denis obviously dwarfs the economy of Mississauga. In fact the economy of Seine-Saint-Denis is larger than the economy of all Canadian cities except Toronto, Montréal, and Vancouver. That's just pretty far from the cliché of a sh*thole.

If you want to compare apples to apples, then you would compare Peel Region with Seine Saint Denis. Peel Region has a population of around 1.5M. and its GDP was around CAD $105B in 2023.

Seine-Saint-Denis hosts the back offices of many international banks and insurance groups, plus part of the Paris CDG airport and the business jet airport Le Bourget (the biggest in Europe, and host of one of the 2 largest airshows in Europe, the other being Farnborough in the UK). It also hosts various universities, as well as the largest logistical parks (warehouses) of Greater Paris, and some of its largest convention centers, as well as the largest film studios and TV studios in France.

Again, Mississauga and Peel region serves a similar role to the Canadian economy. In Toronto, YYZ Pearson Airport in Mississauga is Canada's primary hub airport. There is no competing Orly or Beauvais sized airport in the GTA at the moment, just boutique ones on Toronto island and Hamilton. Peel region also has the Canadian headquarters of a disproportionate share of Fortune 500 companies, and the airport employment zone is the 2nd largest employment hub in Canada. But that's to be expected for a suburb of the country's largest metropolis. Regardless of this, it doesn't forestall the ethnic ghettoization issues that Acajack and I are discussing about.

And it has a public transportation network (subway and commuter trains) that suburbs like Mississauga could only dream of, with close to 100 km of new subway lines currently being bored below Seine-Saint-Denis (lines 15, 16, 17 of the Paris Métro), plus the CDG Express train line u/c that will link CDG to central Paris. Last but not least, the Paris Region has its headquarters and regional council hall located in Seine-Saint-Denis (since 2018), served by the new extension of the automated driverless line 14 of the Paris Métro. There's worse in terms of sh*thole.

As you pretend to be familiar with North America, you should know that the car is king on this side of the pond. Mississauga and Peel Region has an extensive highway network that Parisiens could never dream of, and its stretch of Highway 401 by YYZ airport has 18 lanes which makes it one of North America's busiest and widest highways, just behind the mega expressways in Texas. The province is also continuing development of the Bradford Bypass as well through Brampton, and is continuing to add lanes on the Mississauga stretch of Highway 401 as well as expanding the collector/express system.

Of course the majority of Torontonians these days abhor the lack of public transit to Peel, and is hoping the GO RER expansion run by Deutsche Bahn and Alstom will fix the transit desert there.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

In fact the economy of Seine-Saint-Denis is larger than the economy of all Canadian cities except Toronto, Montréal, and Vancouver.

Oops, you've admitted it

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Zeej

Oops, you've admitted it

Hey, Montréal is arguably THE quintessential Canadian city! With maybe only Ottawa being able to top it in that respect.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Hey, Montréal is arguably THE quintessential Canadian city! With maybe only Ottawa being able to top it in that respect.

I'd perhaps add the oft-forgotten Winnipeg to the mix

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Zeej

I'd perhaps add the oft-forgotten Winnipeg to the mix

Honourable mention for sure. Moncton and Sudbury too.