Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Dans un tout autre registre, je suis encore frustré d'avoir raté Michel Sardou lors de sa tournée d'adieu l'an dernier. (J'avais un empêchement.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

I don't think housing supply would solve the issues that Toronto faces with this unprecedented surge of fake students and NPRs. Even if housing supply magically appears, Toronto will still have to deal with a milieu of social ailments that it's uniquely unequipped to deal with, like integration of a vast underclass holding onto strong foreign identities, building a common identity for social cohesion or capping the size of the GTA's ethnic ghettos like Brampton.

These things do not exist or at least are not seen as problems in Polite Company Toronto.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Please share because I can't find anything.

It would be fairly big news if a show was announced. I'd have heard about it.

I did check but couldn't find anything. It appeared only briefly while my anti-ad addon was inactive for some reason.

Type Mylène Farmer Montréal 2024 in Youtube without Adblock or other addon and perhaps you'll see it too.

Bon sinon ici c'est la guerre ce soir. Et sinon chez vous ça va t'y bien ?

[Acajack]

Armchair assessment:

Québécois have a bit of siege mentality and congregate into a defensive hive-mind when they are criticized by outside actors, but in between themselves discuss their society's problems and shortcomings very honestly, all the time. Almost obsessively.

ROCers' natural tendency is to sweep everything under the carpet. Problem? What problem? The US (and often Quebec) are far worse, anyway.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

I don't think housing supply would solve the issues that Toronto faces with this unprecedented surge of fake students and NPRs. Even if housing supply magically appears, Toronto will still have to deal with a mess of social ailments that it's uniquely unequipped to deal with, like integration of a vast underclass holding onto strong foreign identities, building a common identity for social cohesion or capping the size of the GTA's ethnic ghettos like Brampton.

As for the hypothetical of hundreds of thousands of immigrants/students flooding in from modern UK and France in a given year, what's the probability of that ever happening?

The point is that it's largely a problem in implementation and not in the core principle itself. The post was not "You can point to Toronto as an example of what happens when you loosen regulations around student visas and temporary workers while simultaneously maintaining restrictive policies limiting housing growth."

It was "You can point to Toronto as a failure of the multiculturalist state"...

How much of the city's ailments are due to the above noted regulatory issues as opposed to the culture of those arriving? We weren't having these discussions even back in 2012 when immigration quotas and regulations were sensible, even though the port of origin for those arriving remains unchanged.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I did check but couldn't find anything. It appeared only briefly while my anti-ad addon was inactive for some reason.

Type Mylène Farmer Montréal 2024 in Youtube without Adblock or other addon and perhaps you'll see it too.

Bon sinon ici c'est la guerre ce soir. Et sinon chez vous ça va t'y bien ?

Plutôt bien oui. L'été s'éternise. Je m'en vais faire du vélo et plus tard j'ai une sortie entre amis.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

The point is that it's largely a problem in implementation and not in the core principle itself. The post was not "You can point to Toronto as an example of what happens when you loosen regulations around student visas and temporary workers while simultaneously maintaining restrictive policies limiting housing growth."

It was "You can point to Toronto as a failure of the multiculturalist state"...

How much of the city's ailments are due to the above noted regulatory issues as opposed to the culture of those arriving? We weren't having these discussions even back in 2012 when immigration quotas and regulations were sensible, even though the port of origin for those arriving remains unchanged.

Can we divorce the two and blame it purely on regulatory issues, when the associated social issues/dimensions are pretty much intrinsically tied to it?

Back in 2012, the federal government did not openly advocate for a post-national state identity, and understood the fragility of Canada's multiculturalist society, therefore never increasing immigration/NPR targets beyond what Canadian society could bear and integrate. That's also why Canada had the highly celebrated points system, to provide comfort to Canadians that there was a strong baseline/high-floor, and the country is at least attracting the best and brightest to integrate.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Dans un tout autre registre, je suis encore frustré d'avoir raté Michel Sardou lors de sa tournée d'adieu l'an dernier. (J'avais un empêchement.)

Appart from 1 or 2 songs that are great, the rest is really, REALLY not to my liking. It's rather stale to be honest.

That one is great though (I think it's his most popular in France):

• Video Link

I like that one too, even though it's impossibly misogynistic ():
(most of the impact of the lyrics must be lost in Québec due to the very European slang he uses, "Galonnée jusqu'au porte-jarretelles, Et au steward rouler des pelles", etc)

• Video Link

The rest of his répertoire is... forgettable, to put it mildly.

[New Brisavoine]

In other news BB celebrated her 90th birthday last week!!

Crazy how time flies. It was among the top news that day last week (even though she refuses all interviews now and lives secluded in her house on the French Riviera).

• Video Link

When she dies it will be a big page of France turning forever. A more joyous and carefree France that will never return alas.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Can we divorce the two and blame it purely on regulatory issues, when the associated social issues/dimensions are pretty much intrinsically tied to it?

Back in 2012, the federal government did not openly advocate for a post-national state identity, and understood the fragility of Canada's multiculturalist society, therefore never increasing immigration/NPR targets beyond what Canadian society could bear and integrate.

To me, the key issues that have arisen from the government's disastrous policy would still be here if there was some theoretical pool of millions of impoverished French Canadian immigrants that we flooded our housing and job markets with.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Plutôt bien oui. L'été s'éternise. Je m'en vais faire du vélo et plus tard j'ai une sortie entre amis.

It's FRIGID here! Spring was colder than usual. Summer was tepid (remember all the rain on the Olympic Games opening ceremony? the rest of the summer wasn't much better). I was hoping Autumn would be great and warm, as it's been these past few years due to global warming, but the cold arrived abruptly in early September, and it has remained cold, windy, and rainy since then, and is expected to remain like that during all of October. They even turned central heating on in our building on Sept 26, which is the earliest I've ever seen (normally it's more like late October).

That being said, what's funny about our two climates is you guys are now enjoying the famous Indian Summer whereas we have a cold Autumn as was frequent 30 years ago, but 2 months from now you'll be under -10 or worse with ice and all, whereas we will probably have a mild start of winter around +15C.

So, enjoy it while it lasts!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Appart from 1 or 2 songs that are great, the rest is really, REALLY not to my liking. It's rather stale to be honest.

That one is great though (I think it's his most popular in France):

• Video Link

I like that one too, even though it's impossibly misogynistic ():
(most of the impact of the lyrics must be lost in Québec due to the very European slang he uses, "Galonnée jusqu'au porte-jarretelles, Et au steward rouler des pelles", etc)

• Video Link

The rest of his répertoire is... forgettable, to put it mildly.

Les goûts ne se discutent pas.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The rest of his répertoire is... forgettable, to put it mildly.

Yeah, really, that's an understatement.

Right-wing music of that kind is crappy, cheesy and shameful in the French-speaking world.

Frankly, the leftists are much better at it and culture in general. That's at least one thing they're helpful to, in my opinion anyway.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It's FRIGID here! Spring was colder than usual. Summer was tepid (remember all the rain on the Olympic Games opening ceremony? the rest of the summer wasn't much better). I was hoping Autumn would be great and warm, as it's been these past few years due to global warming, but the cold arrived abruptly in early September, and it has remained cold, windy, and rainy since then, and is expected to remain like that during all of October. They even turned central heating on in our building on Sept 26, which is the earliest I've ever seen (normally it's more like late October).

That being said, what's funny about our two climates is you guys are now enjoying the famous Indian Summer whereas we have a cold Autumn as was frequent 30 years ago, but 2 months from now you'll be under -10 or worse with ice and all, whereas we will probably have a mild start of winter around +15C.

So, enjoy it while it lasts!

This isn’t Indian Summer. Indian Summer is after we’ve already had a frost. So right now it’s too early.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by suburbanite

The point is that it's largely a problem in implementation and not in the core principle itself. The post was not "You can point to Toronto as an example of what happens when you loosen regulations around student visas and temporary workers while simultaneously maintaining restrictive policies limiting housing growth."

It was "You can point to Toronto as a failure of the multiculturalist state"...

How much of the city's ailments are due to the above noted regulatory issues as opposed to the culture of those arriving? We weren't having these discussions even back in 2012 when immigration quotas and regulations were sensible, even though the port of origin for those arriving remains unchanged.

The diversity is not the primary cause of the problem (which is simply high migration - many of the problems would still be the case if this was large scale domestic migration from within Canada to the GTA) - but it aggravates it to some extent, I think. It's harder to feel social solidarity with people who are different, which makes societal issues more difficult to address.

There's a reason why historically, societies that are highly diverse can do very well when things are going good, but tend to do very badly when the shit hits the fan. I think how it actually works is that diversity works well when there's some common glue binding it all together, and in too many cases historically, "prosperity" was that glue, so when it goes away...

The ROC needs to have some potentially difficult conversations about what our values are if we are going to prosper. And it's imperative that this conversation doesn't get taken over by the racists, which is what will probably happen if the non-racists refuse to have it.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Back in 2012, the federal government did not openly advocate for a post-national state identity, and understood the fragility of Canada's multiculturalist society, therefore never increasing immigration/NPR targets beyond what Canadian society could bear and integrate. That's also why Canada had the highly celebrated points system, to provide comfort to Canadians that there was a strong baseline/high-floor, and the country is at least attracting the best and brightest to integrate.

There has always been a bit of a disconnect between what Anglo-Canadians thought their immigration policy was, versus what it actually was. I think this first occurred to me around 2012-ish when the US was having some domestic drama about illegal immigrants and I was in a room full of Canadians who were talking about how evil those Americans were for how mean they are to the poor undocumented folks and how we don't do that here in Canada. Meanwhile Canada had, prior to JT messing it up, a system of zero-tolerance towards illegal immigration that blue Americans would think of as evil and awful. Heck, we regularly deported (and still do) the Canadian born children of illegal immigrants, something that the average Democratic Party voter would think is beyond-the-pale evil.

Anglo-Canadian society always thought of their immigration policy as being like the Lazarus poem - bringing the "poor and wretched" to Canada for a better life. In reality, our system was highly controlled, and highly selective. It made us think we were some uniquely tolerant people (a sort of "progressive jingoism" if you can call it that ) and laughed at those racist Americans and Europeans for complaining about migrants, but in reality we were benefitting from carefully controlled migration that prevented so many of the issues our allies were experiencing.

It was probably only a matter of time before some politician moved our system closer to what the average uninformed white Canadian thought it was to score brownie points with the ignorant public. JT just happened to be that politician. And now we're experiencing the consequences, and realizing that, hey, immigration only really works if it's carefully regulated - the Lazarus model actually kinda sucks.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Anglo-Canadian society always thought of their immigration policy as being like the Lazarus poem - bringing the "poor and wretched" to Canada for a better life.

Modern Canadian Version (credit 1/3 Lazarus, 2/3 Lio45). Anyone wants to improve on my rhymes, you’re welcome

Give me your tired, your poor,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
We need the flow of Fresh New Suckers
To boost the net worth of our Boomers;
Pre-JT landlords could only dream
Of the jackpot from this Ponzi Scheme.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

… now we're experiencing the consequences, and realizing that, hey, immigration only really works if it's carefully regulated - the Lazarus model actually kinda sucks.

Correction, the Lazarus model works well when you have tons of empty land available for colonization (with plenty of resources ripe for the taking) and the FNSs can go sink or swim on their own there. The USA in the 1800s was a great example of this and so it worked well.

(For the opposite example, modern Norway and their SWF: most new FNS would be a net negative.)

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Meanwhile Canada had, prior to JT messing it up, a system of zero-tolerance towards illegal immigration that blue Americans would think of as evil and awful. Heck, we regularly deported (and still do) the Canadian born children of illegal immigrants, something that the average Democratic Party voter would think is beyond-the-pale evil.

Anglo-Canadian society always thought of their immigration policy as being like the Lazarus poem - bringing the "poor and wretched" to Canada for a better life. In reality, our system was highly controlled, and highly selective. It made us think we were some uniquely tolerant people (a sort of "progressive jingoism" if you can call it that ) and laughed at those racist Americans and Europeans for complaining about migrants, but in reality we were benefitting from carefully controlled migration that prevented so many of the issues our allies were experiencing.

It was probably only a matter of time before some politician moved our system closer to what the average uninformed white Canadian thought it was to score brownie points with the ignorant public. JT just happened to be that politician. And now we're experiencing the consequences, and realizing that, hey, immigration only really works if it's carefully regulated - the Lazarus model actually kinda sucks.

Astute observations, it's exactly the tide I see on the ground in the GTA. Smug Canadians believing that it's Canadian exceptionalism carrying the day, when it was obvious Anglo-Canada avoided the worst consequences because of a strictly regimented immigration system. A highly celebrated system that has been dismantled overnight by Justin. The Americans must be feeling some schadenfreude for the mess JT has created north of the border.

Originally Posted by Acajack

These things do not exist or at least are not seen as problems in Polite Company Toronto.

It's this pathological adherence to Canadian exceptionalism that blinds the Toronto elite from acknowledging the realities of the flood of NPRs, i.e. Ontario has brought in millions of low-quality low skilled labour (who for the most part are highly indebted paying for fake LMIAs or useless Conestoga degrees), and there's no realistic support system to integrate them or turn them into productive citizens (which would be really expensive, and literally impossible to achieve with the GTA's extremely weak labour market). The elites seem convinced we'll never see a Seine-Saint-Denis pop up, but there's no convincing argument Ontario has the institutions to prevent it from happening.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

Modern Canadian Version (credit 1/3 Lazarus, 2/3 Lio45). Anyone wants to improve on my rhymes, you’re welcome

Give me your tired, your poor,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
We need the flow of Fresh New Suckers
To boost the net worth of our Boomers;
Pre-JT landlords could only dream
Of the jackpot from this Ponzi Scheme.

Maybe France could give us a miniature version of the Statue of Liberty (just like the one in New York Harbour) and we could affix a plaque to it with lio's revised verse.