Downtown Ottawa Revitalization Initiatives

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

The problem is that outside of this forum many people don't actually even realize this is the case. There is a common misconception that the "honest, hard-working, average joe folks" in the suburbs subsidize the "leftie-loonie" pet projects spearheaded by the urban wards.

This sort of research needs to be promoted and regularly updated:

https://x.com/NeilMispelaar/status/1544024862703886339

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You can whinge on about Westboro. But any density map will show, they aren't nearly as much of a problem as Farhaven or Sticksville or Boreleans which is where most of the low density is happening, substantially exacerbating the revenue-expenditure imbalance being discussed here.

Westboro isn't the problem for lack of density, but rather for the surplus of NIMBYist whining.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

We shouldn't be building new ones with even less density. That is simply accruing liabilities which means even less resources to support everything from transit to library hours to emptying garbage cans. Especially at the cost that these new stroads come in at (tens to hundreds of millions).

We've been saying this sort of thing for at least four decades now.

We (as a society writ large) have barely done anything about it, other than modern suburban SFH residential has smaller lot sizes and yards than it did in the 50s through 80s.

— street layouts? Still building them.

Mass-segregated land uses? Still doing that.

Pointless setbacks of commercial, institutional, and "towers in a park" residential? Addicted.

We (as a society writ large) forgot how to build anything remotely urban, refuse to re-learn that skill, and fly off the handle if anyone attempts to "urbanize" a suburb even a little teeny tiny bit.

We are the stupid architects of our own stupid problems.

[Mousel]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Anyway those Westboro millionaires are dwarfed by renters and people in social housing who don't even pay taxes so elect pro tax increase counciloors. It's the middle class anti tax suburbanites.

The idea that renters don't pay taxes is ridiculous. It's included in the rent. Landlords are the ones who don't pay property taxes.

[lrt's friend]

One of Ottawa's problems is how disconnected our best urban locations are. Bank, Elgin, market, old Hull. We need some glue to hold this together to really demonstrate that urban Ottawa has become a big city and downtown is worth a visit. Our best areas are too scattered with dead areas in between. And our rapid transit does not effectively hold it all together well. Walks from stations can be too far.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

One of Ottawa's problems is how disconnected our best urban locations are. Bank, Elgin, market, old Hull. We need some glue to hold this together to really demonstrate that urban Ottawa has become a big city and downtown is worth a visit. Our best areas are too scattered with dead areas in between. And our rapid transit does not effectively hold it all together well. Walks from stations can be too far.

Bank and Elgin are closer to one another then Toronto rough-comparables (in terms of being parallel traditional main/urban street pairs) like Danforth/Gerrard, Yonge/University, University/Spadina, Queen/Dundas, or Dorchester/Sherbrooke.

The problem isn't the distance itself, it's the poor quality of the fabric between them, and the inattention to the east-west urban streets to connect them. Somerset helps link Elgin and Bank a little bit, but it also has some deader zones. Most of the east-west streets are either boring commercial/office fronts, boring non-active apartment building ground floors, or complete street-killers like the phone exchange or hydro substation.

Not much to be done about the latter two, but we can start working on some of those other problems, if we want.

It also doesn't help that generations ago we decided that naw, we don't need no stinkin' continuous street grid, and didn't project Somerset and Gladstone across the canal, which would likely have led to both of them having a much more urban main street character than what they ended up with.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I think that lrt’s friend is talking much more broadly that you are giving him credit for. He is not only taking about the post-CoViD issue.

Cities develop and change over time, as they grow. When small, a lot of essential services are located in the core. That is THE place to do everything that is located on the High Street. As the city grows, more people occupy the outer reaches, mostly because housing prices are lower out there. Living in the core of the city is more expensive because everything is at their finger-tips.

Once enough people live away from the core, businesses begin to locate further out, to catch those potential clients. Sometimes, these are branches of the main location, which remains in the core; sometimes the remote location becomes the main location, and the core is abandoned. This is especially true if the core has not developed enough residents.

Thus, the centrally situated High Street jewelry store used to be the place people traveled to to buy a ring – because it was the only jewelry store in town. Once a store opened closer to the suburbs, people could save the trip downtown and buy their rings closer to their home. As fewer people ventured into the core, the downtown store had to rely almost exclusively on local (downtown) residents. If there were not enough of those to cover the high rent, the store closed and the downtown residents traveled to the suburbs for jewelry.

There is nothing unusual about Ottawa’s downtown changing. It has become primarily a business location, with most of the unique reasons to go there – apart from work – removed to the suburbs. There was no longer a need to head down to the Elgin Theater, for instance, since a suburbanite could see the same movie – granted, on a smaller screen – at the new multi-plex theater in their local suburban mall. And the multi-plex format allows several different films to attract customers. The huge ‘Big Elgin’ had to attract hundreds of customers for a single movie.

People still travel to the core for the unique things that are there. The NAC still draws in suburbanites, for example. But there really needs to be an excellent reason for suburbanites to go downtown. And there are still not enough local residents to support a lot of other offerings in the core. There is only one local mall downtown. And the grocery stores were clustered near the highest ‘captive’ population; the university.

Things are changing in downtown Ottawa, however. More residential units are being developed. Gradually, grocery stores, hardware stores, and movie theaters will return. It just won’t happen overnight. And there is little that anyone can do to speed things up. (Well, maybe governments could make it easier and cheaper to house people downtown.)

These are good points. There is a big difference between not having the basic services in the core of a major city, and not having suburban-style big box stores there. They aren't huge suburban big boxes but there are Canadian Tire stores on Ste-Catherine in downtown Montreal and Yonge in downtown Toronto for example.

It doesn't have to be a Canadian Tire or Home Depot, but if I am not mistaken there is not a single hardware store in the entire area of Ottawa CBD, Lowertown, Byward Market, Sandy Hill, and maybe even Vanier.

Also there is no full grocery store in central Ottawa west of the canal and north of the Queensway. Is that right?

I know I used Montreal and Toronto as examples and they are much larger than Ottawa and have way more history as big cities, but even so the stuff I am talking about can be found in the central core of any major city in the world, except maybe for the down-on-their-luck ones in the US. (And Ottawa isn't that kind of city, and doesn't want to be that type of city.)

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Mousel

The idea that renters don't pay taxes is ridiculous. It's included in the rent. Landlords are the ones who don't pay property taxes.

They pay taxes in the sense of they deserve services but they don't care about the tax rates. Their rent is not impacted in the short or even medium term by tax increaes. Landlords of course directly pay for any increase and can't pass it on to their tenants. Voting patterns clearly reflect this. As they should.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

These are good points. There is a big difference between not having the basic services in the core of a major city, and not having suburban-style big box stores there. They aren't huge suburban big boxes but there are Canadian Tire stores on Ste-Catherine in downtown Montreal and Yonge in downtown Toronto for example.

Isn't there some urban "big box" of some kind in downtown Vancouver?

Also there is no full grocery store in central Ottawa west of the canal and north of the Queensway. Is that right?

No, that isn't right, unless you have an unusual definition of "full grocery store".

If the Downtown task force, SOPA, etc., folks want to kick-start something, entice Bulk Barn to locate or license a location on Sparks or Bank.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Isn't there some urban "big box" of some kind in downtown Vancouver?



No, that isn't right, unless you have an unusual definition of "full grocery store".

If the Downtown task force, SOPA, etc., folks want to kick-start something, entice Bulk Barn to locate or license a location on Sparks or Bank.

OK I may be mistaken. Where is the grocery store in this area?

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Acajack

OK I may be mistaken. Where is the grocery store in this area?

The Independent at Bank and Somerset and the Farmboy at Metcalfe and Gloucester

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by phil235

The Independent at Bank and Somerset and the Farmboy at Metcalfe and Gloucester

OK thanks guys.

[MarkR]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Also there is no full grocery store in central Ottawa west of the canal and north of the Queensway. Is that right?

As has been pointed out, there are two regular grocery stores west of the canal. (Sure, they don't carry clothing etc. but I don't expect such a store to do so.)

Now, change that to "west of Bank St." and you're correct. There's isn't a grocery store north of the Queensway until you get to the Metro just east of Is. Park Drive or the Superstore at Kirkwood.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by MarkR

As has been pointed out, there are two regular grocery stores west of the canal. (Sure, they don't carry clothing etc. but I don't expect such a store to do so.)

Now, change that to "west of Bank St." and you're correct. There's isn't a grocery store north of the Queensway until you get to the Metro just east of Is. Park Drive or the Superstore at Kirkwood.

Independent meets the definition for sure and does well with a good supply of carless but affluent shoppers. It's crazy expensive but you can buy anything you need. Farm Boy a bit less so. Did Sobey's buy the Farm Boy and rebrand there or did a more full service supermarket not survive long?

Many years ago there was a Loeb on the edge of Chinatown. Losing that was a big hit for West Centretown.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MarkR

As has been pointed out, there are two regular grocery stores west of the canal. (Sure, they don't carry clothing etc. but I don't expect such a store to do so.)

Now, change that to "west of Bank St." and you're correct. There's isn't a grocery store north of the Queensway until you get to the Metro just east of Is. Park Drive or the Superstore at Kirkwood.

Holy cow that's a huge distance and area. I would have thought there'd be one somewhere in the vicinity of Preston St.

[DTcrawler]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It doesn't have to be a Canadian Tire or Home Depot, but if I am not mistaken there is not a single hardware store in the entire area of Ottawa CBD, Lowertown, Byward Market, Sandy Hill, and maybe even Vanier.

Technically correct but keep in mind there is a Home Hardware on Bank St. in the Glebe (six blocks south of the 417 i.e. Centretown) which is approx. 2km from Parliament Hill. Ottawa is not as big as Toronto/Montreal wherein you might need multiple hardware stores within this radius, not to mention buying habits of urban dwellers which make these types of stores less necessary. And I'm sure folks in Vanier are capable of travelling the ~2.5km from the intersection of Montreal Rd. / Vanier Pkwy. to the Canadian Tire next to the baseball stadium in Overbrook.

There is also Randall's on Bank St. just south of the 417 which sells paint, flooring, window finishes, etc.

Also there is no full grocery store in central Ottawa west of the canal and north of the Queensway. Is that right?

Massine's Independent at Bank/Somerset is a full-service grocery. There is also a Loblaw's immediately south of the 417 (visible when driving EB on the highway) at Isabella/Metcalfe. For non- full service (but still pretty complete) there is also a Farm Boy at Metcalfe/Lisgar and a Food Basics is apparently coming soon to Queen/Lyon.

Edit: did not realize multiple comments already addressed the above.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Did Sobey's buy the Farm Boy and rebrand there or did a more full service supermarket not survive long?

The Farm Boy on Metcalfe used to be a "Sobey's Urban Fresh" which is basically regular Sobey's but tailored to urban living (so basically just more expensive with more premium options, etc.). I can't recall if it was full service or not. When Empire (Sobey's parent co.) bought Farm Boy, I believe they converted all or most of the Urban Fresh locations into Farm Boys, which is how the GTA got introduced to Farm Boy.

As for the "food desert" between Centretown/CBD and Westboro, it's true that there are no major chains in this stretch but there are plenty of local grocers in that region. You can easily get most staples at Italian delis like Luciano or Di Rienzo's, or Asian grocery stores like Shiraz or Kowloon. There is also Hintonburg Market (no, not the outdoor Parkdale Market) a bit further west which is just excellent.

If you go to a place like NYC, you're not going to see a Kroger or a Publix or a Trader Joe's on every block. Most New Yorkers do their regular shopping at bodegas which are similar to the places I've listed above, along with places like Sherwood Deli, etc.

[zzptichka]

There is now a grocery store just across the river in Hull behind Terrasses. A good option for somebody living at Lebreton Flats or Zibi. And Food Basics coming to Lyon & Queen next year.

[phil235]

On topic, there is a nice Reddit thread on what people like about downtown that gives a bit of balance to the negativity that seems to be the norm in this town:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ottawa/comments/1fhhv9r/what_are_your_favourite_things_about_downtown/

Seem to be lots of comments from people who actually live there, as opposed to the views of those who drive in once in a while. Or the very strong opinions of those who say they never go. Good to add some perspective to the discussion.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

As for the "food desert" between Centretown/CBD and Westboro, it's true that there are no major chains in this stretch but there are plenty of local grocers in that region. You can easily get most staples at Italian delis like Luciano or Di Rienzo's, or Asian grocery stores like Shiraz or Kowloon. There is also Hintonburg Market (no, not the outdoor Parkdale Market) a bit further west which is just excellent.

If you go to a place like NYC, you're not going to see a Kroger or a Publix or a Trader Joe's on every block. Most New Yorkers do their regular shopping at bodegas which are similar to the places I've listed above, along with places like Sherwood Deli, etc.

I don't think it is true that most New Yorkers do their regular shopping at bodegas. Like other people shopping at convenience stores, they are either looking for convenience or in a food desert where they have no close options. Manhattan certainly as a large number of chain supermarkets, so New Yorkers don't have an obvious aversion.

Little over-priced convenience stores and ethnic convenience stores are not a suitable replacement for full-service grocery stores and helps to reinforce poverty by making it more expensive for the poor to eat nutritious food.

[lrt's friend]

In my lifetime, I can recall three hardware stores, one just north of Gladstone on Bank, one next to Ogilvy's on Rideau and another in the market. There was also Canadian Tire on Kent right downtown which survived to the 80s or 90s which left for high rise development. Staples on Bank was originally Colonial Furniture that later moved to Cyrville and Orme's furniture was on Sparks which still exists at South Gloucester on Bank. Ogilvy's also had a separate furniture store at Besserer and Nicholas. There also used to be a full service Dominion Grocery Store in the market that left to make way for a parking garage. This shift was the result of depopulation of centretown, increases in land values, the shift of retail to the suburbs and the curtailment of car travel in downtown (increase of parking rates and reduction of available parking and encouragement of public transit use). This made most large format stores less profitable with rising rents.