Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity - Page 500

1overcosc · #**9981** Posted **Sep 13, 2024, 7:34 PM**

Washington would likely be heavily involved in the negotiations if Quebec voted to secede, regardless of what Ottawa or Quebec City thinks. They're the behemoth of the continent.

MolsonExport · #**9982** Posted **Sep 13, 2024, 7:48 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I was reading some of the stuff above about a Cree blockade, Trudeau going in... and I had a depressing thought. Are we sure that, in the event of a serious dispute or breakdown/secession event in Canada, that the (real) decision on what to send in would still be taken in Ottawa?

Or would it be taken in Washington?

Like, imagining Justin Trudeau trying to use the machinery of the Canadian state in the way his dad started to do... I can't quite do it. And it's not just because he's a pussy or whatever... it seems like it would be obstructed somehow.

you are right. Francois Legault would do a much better job.
Because...reasons.

Remember Oka? Ipperwash? The Provincial authorities (Quebec, Ontario, respectively) arguably made a terrible situation much worse in both instances.

MolsonExport · #**9983** Posted **Sep 13, 2024, 7:49 PM**

The Cree and Inuit are not baggage that you can simply transfer from one country to another.
At least, no longer.

kool maudit · #**9984** Posted **Sep 13, 2024, 7:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

you are right. Francois Legault would do a much better job.
Because...reasons.

Remember Oka? Ipperwash? The Provincial authorities (Quebec, Ontario, respectively) arguably made a terrible situation much worse in both instances.

I don't think he would. My post wasn't in support of Quebec vs. Canadian leadership, it was questioning whether the outcome of a serious, partition-level conflict on the North American continent would ultimately be decided by the United States, through whatever channels.

kool maudit · #**9985** Posted **Sep 13, 2024, 8:00 PM**

Richard Holbrooke wrote a book about how he despaired of the EU and Germany's unwillingness or inability to "sort out" the Balkans in the runup to the Bosnian war. I really wonder what sort of sovereignty Canada, Quebec, the Cree or whoever else would really have if things got sporty enough.

YOWetal · #**9986** Posted **Sep 13, 2024, 8:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Richard Holbrooke wrote a book about how he despaired of the EU and Germany's unwillingness or inability to "sort out" the Balkans in the runup to the Bosnian war. I really wonder what sort of sovereignty Canada, Quebec, the Cree or whoever else would really have if things got sporty enough.

This is Europe not stepping up. This would be an internal Canadian matter and especially if there was no violence wouldn't involve the US beyond the very strong lever they would have over Quebec on CUSMA access. If it became violent the US would act as a meditor but the idea they'd intervene on one side or the other seems unlikely.

New Brisavoine · #**9987** Posted **Sep 13, 2024, 8:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeej

In order to preserve its existing influence down the road, Canada needs to bump up its numbers across the board relatively to the US.

That's just INSANE as a comment. You'd run out of quality of life (and of tentative immigrants) before your population is large enough to be able to challenge the US in terms of hard power. You don't even want to go down that road (but some Canadian Conservatives apparently still harbor that delusion, same as in Australia by the way).

New Brisavoine · #**9988** Posted **Sep 13, 2024, 8:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Washington would likely be heavily involved in the negotiations if Quebec voted to secede, regardless of what Ottawa or Quebec City thinks. They're the behemoth of the continent.

They would want the transition period to be as smooth and peaceful as possible, of course, so forget about Ottawa using the Cree to bla bla bla, and all that nonsense. Washington would heavily pressure Ottawa if Ottawa tried that (but I don't think politicians in Ottawa would even try, because hopefully there are still adults in the room). What Washington couldn't do, on the other hand, is preventing Québec from seceding if a majority of people in Québec vote OUI. Opposing the free will of people and the right to self-determination would be very badly received, and people in Washington are not that stupid. But they would certainly want to make sure that Québec remains a loyal and friendly neighbor not risking US security.

New Brisavoine · #**9989** Posted **Sep 13, 2024, 9:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Richard Holbrooke wrote a book about how he despaired of the EU and Germany's unwillingness or inability to "sort out" the Balkans in the runup to the Bosnian war.

Anglo-Saxons misreading Europe, as usual. It's like the Brexiters incessantly shuttling to Berlin in the wrong belief that somehow Germany was the boss of Europe so the deal needed to be made with Merkel.

Germany is not the boss of Europe, it's just one among others. The largest economy, but not the largest military or diplomacy (that's France). And in Yugoslavia, it is actually Germany which created the mess in the first place, by unilaterally recognizing the independence of Croatia, instead of trying to preserve a united Yugoslavia as the French were trying to do.

YOWetal · #**9990** Posted **Sep 13, 2024, 9:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Anglo-Saxons misreading Europe, as usual. It's like the Brexiters incessantly shuttling to Berlin in the wrong belief that somehow Germany was the boss of Europe so the deal needed to be made with Merkel.

Germany is not the boss of Europe, it's just one among others. The largest economy, but not the largest military or diplomacy (that's France). And in Yugoslavia, it is actually Germany which created the mess in the first place, by unilaterally recognizing the independence of Croatia, instead of trying to preserve a united Yugoslavia as the French were trying to do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

They would want the transition period to be as smooth and peaceful as possible, of course, so forget about Ottawa using the Cree to bla bla bla, and all that nonsense. Washington would heavily pressure Ottawa if Ottawa tried that (but I don't think politicians in Ottawa would even try, because hopefully there are still adults in the room). What Washington couldn't do, on the other hand, is preventing Québec from seceding if a majority of people in Québec vote OUI. Opposing the free will of people and the right to self-determination would be very badly received, and people in Washington are not that stupid. But they would certainly want to make sure that Québec remains a loyal and friendly neighbor not risking US security.

This is a super French way of looking at these things. Ottawa won't be using the Cree it will be the other way around. While sure there might be some encouragement but the CIA didn't spark every movement for liberation. Even when they lit the match the tinder was dry. Croatians (and Slovenians) were going to get indepenance come what may. Not recognizing Soviet disintegration didn't make it less violent when it fell apart anyway. Etc.

kool maudit · #**9991** Posted **Sep 13, 2024, 10:05 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Anglo-Saxons misreading Europe, as usual. It's like the Brexiters incessantly shuttling to Berlin in the wrong belief that somehow Germany was the boss of Europe so the deal needed to be made with Merkel.

Had France had the power, it could have read or misread things the way the Americans did, and put itself in charge. I actually have my own doubts about Germany's ability to place itself, or be placed, at the centre of European affairs. I's a defeated, occupied country in a lot of ways that still matter. But La Grande Nation is the only other candidate, and... this is not happening right now.

MolsonExport · #**9992** Posted **Sep 13, 2024, 10:29 PM**

maybe it is also European-French misreading Quebec and Canada, as usual.

New Brisavoine · #**9993** Posted **Sep 13, 2024, 10:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool maudit

But La Grande Nation is the only other candidate, and... this is not happening right now.

What do you mean?

"La Grande Nation", by the way, is a cliché German expression that is NEVER used in France. It's a bit like "double entendre" in English, a supposedly French expression NEVER used in French (it was invented by the English I believe). In French it's "à double sens".

kool maudit · #**9994** Posted **Sep 14, 2024, 9:53 AM**

You often remind us when we use French terms that are not quite au courant (like this one), but you are here speaking English with us, the Anglo-Saxons.

Does the inverse not happen because you are an expert, or because you are being treated with a degree of grace?

MonctonRad · #**9995** Posted **Sep 14, 2024, 10:27 AM**

NB certainly seems a pompous and self important type, imbued with a certain haughty sense of disapproval and condescension towards the “Anglo-Saxons” which can get a bit tedious after some time. He doesn’t need to perpetually belabour the point. We get it. You don’t really like us. I still think at some point in the distant past that an inebriated Mancunian soccer hooligan kicked his dog, scarring him for life, and creating a deep racial hatred against all 500 million native English speakers in the anglosphere. I think NB should seek solace amongst other like minded metropolitain elitists with similar disdain for their distaff cousins originating on the other side of the channel, and leave us Canadians to our own devices.

New Brisavoine · #**9996** Posted **Sep 14, 2024, 12:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by kool maudit

You often remind us when we use French terms that are not quite au courant (like this one)

"Au courant" means "aware (of some information)". Up-to-date is "courant" without "au". Or in more colloquial French: "à la page" (not sure this one is used in Québec).

As for "double entendre", it's not that it's not up-to-date, it's just that it was NEVER used in French. I have never seen this expression in historical texts.

And as for "la Grande Nation", I don't think it was ever used either. "La Grande Armée" was the name of Napoleon's army which defeated the Austrians in 1805 and the Prussians in 1806, so perhaps that's how the Germans coined "la Grande Nation" to mock the French.