Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

If you don't think OKA but with Canada's Army on the side of the Indigenous is possible than you are more optimistic than me.

I try to imagine Justin purple socks Trudeau launching a 'special military operation' to liberate the Crees from Québec oppression...

PS: Bonus question: in the sci-fi scenario where rump Canada snatches these hydro-electric territories away from Québec by military force, who do they sell the electricity to? Surely Québec is not buying that electricity anymore.

[drew]

^ I think in that scenario, it would be Quebec scrambling a lot more than the ROC.

But there are plenty of buyers on all sides for that power if need be.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I try to imagine Justin purple socks Trudeau launching a 'special military operation' to liberate the Crees from Québec oppression...

PS: Bonus question: in the sci-fi scenario where rump Canada snatches these hydro-electric territories away from Québec by military force, who do they sell the electricity to? Surely Québec is not buying that electricity anymore.

You really think this is in sci fi land? I know you aren't Canadian but anywhere there is a breakdown in rule of law and a huge resource people try to get a hold of it. If Cree cut the transmission and set up a blockade. How Does the SQ react? I mean purple socks is long gone so whatever you imagine he would do is irrelevant. In 1995ish Chretien probably acts as a mediator. 2030 reconciliation is in full swing Liberal PM who knows. Indiegnous from across Canada would certainly flock to the conflict and some might take their LAVs with them. It's often how these things go. Canada didn't our military assets out of Quebec on the eve of the referendum for nothing.

[New Brisavoine]

^^Kamala Harris would siffler la fin de la récréation rather quickly...

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Hyrdo resources are absolutely on Cree territory. They have blocked projects and a court decision made Quebec negotiate a three way deal.

All to say it might not be likely as they can probably buy the small number of Cree who live there. Like the whole north is less than 50k I believe. Cash delivered to some chiefs and a better deal on the hyrdo probably placates them but it has the potential to go bad quickly. If you don't think OKA but with Canada's Army on the side of the Indigenous is possible than you are more optimistic than me.

The money isn't just given to the chiefs. And the Cree people are very culturally different than Mohawks. I can't stand it when people down South think stereotypes of Indigenous peoples apply to ones up North.

I have visited the Cree communities along James Bay on the Quebec side. Almost everybody there is is happy to benefit financially from Hydro Quebec. There is a large amount of money distributed directly to households. Some people I spoke with were getting about 50-70 thousand a year or more depending on the size of their families. This allows many of the people to live off of the land more and go to their camps whenever they want if they choose not to work a paying job.

[New Brisavoine]

^^This resembles a lot what the French would call "assistanat" (not sure this word is used in Québec). I'm not sure "assistanat" is a good thing for these communities... See the high rates of alcoholism, suicides, domestic violence.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

The money isn't just given to the chiefs. And the Cree people are very culturally different than Mohawks. I can't stand it when people down South think stereotypes of Indigenous peoples apply to ones up North.

I have visited the Cree communities along James Bay on the Quebec side. Almost everybody there is is happy to benefit financially from Hydro Quebec. There is a large amount of money distributed directly to households. Some people I spoke with were getting about 50-70 thousand a year or more depending on the size of their families. This allows many of the people to live off of the land more and go to their camps whenever they want if they choose not to work a paying job.

The Cree communities of Quebec near James Bay are one of the best Indigenous success stories in Canadian history (along with a few Indigenous communities in BC that are very successful land and property developers).

Of course the Cree still try and leverage any power they have with the Quebec government, which is why there was a 2002 follow-up deal (called La Paix des Braves) to the landmark 1975 James Bay Agreement with them that paved the way for the mega hydro developments.

Under an independence scenario I'd expect the Cree to try and "leverage" with Quebec again.

It's all part of the game. C'est de bonne guerre.

[MolsonExport]

I lived in Osoyoos (British Columbia) for a while. The local First Nations Band was very successful and entrepreneurial

http://oib.ca/

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

^^This resembles a lot what the French would call "assistanat" (not sure this word is used in Québec). I'm not sure "assistanat" is a good thing for these communities... See the high rates of alcoholism, suicides, domestic violence.

I know the word but the term is not really used that often here.

As for the James Bay Cree the Hydro-Québec money has been used very responsibly and they have much better socio-economic outcomes than most Indigenous communities, including good schools and prosperous businesses. They even have their own airline that is an important part of the transportation network in that part of Quebec for both Indigenous and non-Indigenous communties.

That said, it is true that money spent on or given to Indigenous communities in Canada doesn't always lead to such positive results.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Loco101

The money isn't just given to the chiefs. And the Cree people are very culturally different than Mohawks. I can't stand it when people down South think stereotypes of Indigenous peoples apply to ones up North.

I have visited the Cree communities along James Bay on the Quebec side. Almost everybody there is is happy to benefit financially from Hydro Quebec. There is a large amount of money distributed directly to households. Some people I spoke with were getting about 50-70 thousand a year or more depending on the size of their families. This allows many of the people to live off of the land more and go to their camps whenever they want if they choose not to work a paying job.

Sure some good points. But the Cree held their own referendum on seperating from Quebec. You might be right the first reaction tactic might not be violence but peacful blockage would be supported by Mohahws and others. If they stop electricity transmission to Quebec obviously QC would react.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

which is why there was a 2002 follow-up deal (called La Paix des Braves)

An expression coined by no other than ROC's beloved... de Gaulle! (in an entirely different and much more dramatic context)

This is another example (which I didn't know) of the Québec elites following and being quite aware of things going on in France.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Sure some good points. But the Cree held their own referendum on seperating from Quebec. You might be right the first reaction tactic might not be violence but peacful blockage would be supported by Mohahws and others. If they stop electricity transmission to Quebec obviously QC would react.

The Cree (and Inuit) referendums were negotiating tactics. Again, it's fair game but not necessarily indicative of what would happen to those territories.

Neither the Cree nor the Inuit nor any other Indigenous groups in any province in Canada have any true degree of sovereignty over the lands they live on.

The provinces, while not sovereign countries, do have some degree of sovereignty legally.

There isn't anything written down anywhere that says Indigenous people have these rights, whereas the Supreme Court reference on secession sets out that the provinces do.

It's noteworthy that it also says that the rights and views of Indigenous peoples and minorities must be considered as well in a case of secession, but doesn't specify that they actually have a right to partition.

[Acajack]

In the news in the past 24 hours: Indigenous groups was a seat on Hydro-Québec's board of directors, and to be consulted on expansion plans.

De bonne guerre!

https://x.com/AlainLaforesTVA/status/1834316870402670941

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The Cree (and Inuit) referendums were negotiating tactics. Again, it's fair game but not necessarily indicative of what would happen to those territories.

Neither the Cree nor the Inuit nor any other Indigenous groups in any province in Canada have any true degree of sovereignty over the lands they live on.

The provinces, while not sovereign countries, do have some degree of sovereignty legally.

There isn't anything written down anywhere that says Indigenous people have these rights, whereas the Supreme Court reference on secession sets out that the provinces do.

It's noteworthy that it also says that the rights and views of Indigenous peoples and minorities must be considered as well in a case of secession, but doesn't specify that they actually have a right to partition.

Yes and no. I think the idea the Cree would want independance or to go to war to stay in Canada is probably unlikely but things can quickly escalate.

"Legally" has no meaning. There are precedents and general principles but Canada does not have to allow Quebec to seperate. The 1995 plan was to change the facts on the ground as only force can really change someone declaring independance. The Cree could do the same and the question is what would newly indepqndant Quebec do with the possiblity of losing a key source of revenue. There would be English rebellions too but those are more far fetched. Indigenous have less to lose, more to gain and an attitude that current status quo is unfair and incorrect. Thus overturning this order is more appealing as things break apart. That is what happens when states disintegrate.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes and no. I think the idea the Cree would want independance or to go to war to stay in Canada is probably unlikely but things can quickly escalate.

"Legally" has no meaning. There are precedents and general principles but Canada does not have to allow Quebec to seperate. The 1995 plan was to change the facts on the ground as only force can really change someone declaring independance. The Cree could do the same and the question is what would newly indepqndant Quebec do with the possiblity of losing a key source of revenue. There would be English rebellions too but those are more far fetched. Indigenous have less to lose, more to gain and an attitude that current status quo is unfair and incorrect. Thus overturning this order is more appealing as things break apart. That is what happens when states disintegrate.

I think you or someone else has mentioned that peace with the Cree could fairly easily be "bought off". As ungracious as that sounds, it's not false.

The Cree number about 20,000. Quebec could make each and every one of them a millionaire.

It could also give them lots of autonomy in terms of how they manage their own affairs. Virtually their own quasi-independent country.

Canada would never do this - for starters because it would set a precedent and be too costly given the hundreds of Indigenous groups across Canada.

Secondly because Ottawa has always been quite paternalistic towards Indigenous groups. And any other groups in Canada in fact.

This is the mindset that leads to lots of federal-provincial conflicts, especially with Quebec.

Whereas nobody in Quebec City or anywhere else in Quebec really gives a shit how the Cree want to live their lives and govern their own affairs in an isolated community 1800 km away from where 99% of Québécois people live.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think you or someone else has mentioned that peace with the Cree could fairly easily be "bought off". As ungracious as that sounds, it's not false.

The Cree number about 20,000. Quebec could make each and every one of them a millionaire.

It could also give them lots of autonomy in terms of how they manage their own affairs. Virtually their own quasi-independent country.

Canada would never do this - for starters because it would set a precedent and be too costly given the hundreds of Indigenous groups across Canada.

Secondly because Ottawa has always been quite paternalistic towards Indigenous groups. And any other groups in Canada in fact.

This is the mindset that leads to lots of federal-provincial conflicts, especially with Quebec.

Whereas nobody in Quebec City or anywhere else in Quebec really gives a shit how the Cree want to live their lives and govern their own affairs in an isolated community 1800 km away from where 99% of Québécois people live.

Yes for sure it is very solvable but groups often get arrogant when they win and forget the overall weakness of their situation. Quebec can easily make a new better deal with indegnous Quebecers but the inclidination would be the opposite from my read of Quebec attitdues. ALberta claims an independant Alberta wouldn't be bound by previous treaties for example.

At the end of the day it seems like the most likely flashpoint. The idea violence is impossible seems wild to me. I mean there was a small armed insurgency and we saw how Canada reacted to that with troops on the streets. So the idea we are a peacful people unlike Yugoslavia or whoever else seems dubious.

[kool maudit]

I was reading some of the stuff above about a Cree blockade, Trudeau going in... and I had a depressing thought. Are we sure that, in the event of a serious dispute or breakdown/secession event in Canada, that the (real) decision on what to send in would still be taken in Ottawa?

Or would it be taken in Washington?

Like, imagining Justin Trudeau trying to use the machinery of the Canadian state in the way his dad started to do... I can't quite do it. And it's not just because he's a pussy or whatever... it seems like it would be obstructed somehow.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Yes for sure it is very solvable but groups often get arrogant when they win and forget the overall weakness of their situation. Quebec can easily make a new better deal with indegnous Quebecers but the inclidination would be the opposite from my read of Quebec attitdues. ALberta claims an independant Alberta wouldn't be bound by previous treaties for example.

At the end of the day it seems like the most likely flashpoint. The idea violence is impossible seems wild to me. I mean there was a small armed insurgency and we saw how Canada reacted to that with troops on the streets. So the idea we are a peacful people unlike Yugoslavia or whoever else seems dubious.

I don't disagree with any of this (even that Québécois can be cocky) but in this particular situation it would be in Quebec's huge interest to find a way for things to pan out as smoothly as possible.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I was reading some of the stuff above about a Cree blockade, Trudeau going in... and I had a depressing thought. Are we sure that, in the event of a serious dispute or breakdown/secession event in Canada, that the (real) decision on what to send in would still be taken in Ottawa?

Or would it be taken in Washington?

Like, imagining Justin Trudeau trying to use the machinery of the Canadian state in the way his dad started to do... I can't quite do it. And it's not just because he's a pussy or whatever... it seems like it would be obstructed somehow.

I don't know what this even means. We certainly have less influence and control from the US than we did in the 1970s. Our economy is much stronger and more diverse.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I don't know what this even means. We certainly have less influence and control from the US than we did in the 1970s. Our economy is much stronger and more diverse.

The world is getting smaller and people/countries in digging into their respective camps. When push comes to shove, it will be the true global powers that tell the rest of us what to do.

If Washington decided it wanted to involve itself in our matters, Canada would almost certainly end up conceding some of its influence or decision making power.

The controversial century initiative was born from this line of thought. In order to preserve its existing influence down the road, Canada needs to bump up its numbers across the board relatively to the US. That is - if we want to.