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  #9941  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 5:00 PM
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I mentioned Jumonville Glen and George Washington. Don't lecture me.

Yes, these were skirmishes, unsanctioned and mostly informal border conflicts. They were not all out warfare, and were not sanctioned by the British government (the colonial councils however did play a part). The first organized attempts for major warfare were in 1755, especially when Governors Shirley and Lawrence from Massachusetts and Nova Scotia planned the attack on Fort Beausejour, but even this was a response to French skirmishes on the western frontier, and "Father Leloutre's War" in Nova Scotia. This warmongering French priest took great pleasure at harrying rural English settlers in Nova Scotia. Leloutre was the main reason why the Expulsion (Grande Derangement) took place.
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  #9942  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 5:11 PM
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And what about Alsace (Elsaß) in France? Although German dialects were spoken in Elsaß for most of its history, the dominant language in Alsace today is French.
The MAJOR difference being that the Alsatians willingly turned into French citizens, which was never the case for the French Canadians. They never accepted to become "British". Also, the way Alsace became French is vastly different from the way French Canada became British. In the latter case, it's a clear war of conquest and annexation against the will of its inhabitants, in the former case it's much more complex as Alsace was torn by war during the Thirty Years War (between Germans, before any involvement by France), and Alsatian Protestants fearful of the incoming arrival of the Catholic troops of the emperor called for French troops to garrison their cities and towns to protect them against the emperor (that's how it started).

Then Alsace became French more as a result of diplomacy than as a result war and conquest per se. Initially Richelieu's plan was for Alsace to be given to a Protestant German duke allied with France, in order to create a buffer state allied with France separating France from the Holy Roman Empire, but the duke unexpectedly died, and after that like I've said many towns and cities in Alsace asked for French protection because they feared brutal retaliation by imperial Catholic troops. In the end, after France defeated the imperial army, these territories were ceded by the emperor to France, but it was only about 1/3 of Alsace, and the rest followed over the years in a complex series of episodes linked to feudal rights (which were crazily intertwined in the Holy Roman Empire) that would be too long and complicated to explain. The annexation was gradual, from the late 1640s to the late 1790s (the Republic of Mulhouse only became French in the 1790s when it decided to join the French Republic).

Then unlike the Brits, the French royal authorities cleverly kept a light touch in Alsace: no inflows of French colonists, no subjugating the local population to French law (local customary German laws remained until 1789), no deportation of the elites and merchant community, no taxes (newly annexed provinces were usually exempted of most taxes by the French kings), and no customs duties imposed (until 1789, the customs border of France still ran along the summits of the Vosges, and Alsace had no customs border with the Holy Roman Empire, as before the 1640s). Also the German-language university of Strasbourg was preserved until 1789. Etc. Etc.

It's simply not comparable with how French Canada was treated after 1760.

Then of course there was the French Revolution when all provinces were treated as equal, and representatives from all provinces swore in 1790 their free belonging to France in the Fête de la Fédération. It may only be symbolic, but in politics symbols are important. Then all the particular laws and customs of Alsace were eradicated during the French Revolution, but this was a movement of building an equal society by getting rid of privileges all across France that wasn't specific to Alsace, so it was not perceived by the Alsatians as something being done "against" them, and in fact they eagerly took part in it as they too were eager to build a free and equal society (various prominent French generals during the French Revolution were Alsatians, such as Kléber; how many French Canadian generals in the British Army post 1760?).

So both cases are vastly different. This is why today Alsace is integrated within France, whereas Québec still is a thorny issue in Canada. History matters.
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  #9943  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 5:25 PM
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I would argue that the British touch in Quebec was also pretty light. Light enough that it helped to provoke the American Revolution.

French education and civil law was preserved. The Catholic Church was left alone. The final straw (for the Yanks) was the Quebec Act (designed to prevent westward expansion by the colonists into Indian lands). This was accomplished by gifting Quebec the Great Lakes and Ohio regions.
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  #9944  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 5:26 PM
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It's a shame that children there are forbidden from receiving their education in their ancestral German tongue.
Nobody is forbidden from learning German, and the Alsatian dialect is taught in French schools since the 1970s. In France the Alsace Region (and now Grand Est Region) has done a lot to develop German skills in Alsace, but unfortunately German fluency is declining as elsewhere in France, due to... the juggernaut of the English language. Families want their kids to be fluent in English, and see German as an impediment to that. I deplore it, but that's how it is in much of Europe (for the same reason, French skills in Flanders are plummeting, ditto in the German regions bordering France).

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Personally, I think France should give Nice back to the Italians.
You sound like Mussolini now.

Nice was never Italian (Italy was created AFTER Nice became French; that was part of the deal with Piedmont-Sardinia actually), so it cannot be "given back" to a country it was never part of. Nice belonged to Piedmont-Sardinia, not Italy, and before that to the House of Savoy (a territory located... in France, before the House of Savoy moved east of the Alps and established their new capital in Turin; their old capital was Chambéry in Savoy). And before the House of Savoy, Nice belonged to the County of Provence (it seceded from Provence in the 14th century, and joined the County of Savoy).

And from a linguistic point of view, the dialects in the area of Nice were part of the Provençal dialect area (part of Occitan), not Ligurian (which is the dialects spoken in the Italian Riviera, which belong to the large family of Italian dialects, quite distinct from Occitan).
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  #9945  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 5:31 PM
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I mentioned Jumonville Glen and George Washington. Don't lecture me.

Yes, these were skirmishes, unsanctioned and mostly informal border conflicts. They were not all out warfare, and were not sanctioned by the British government (the colonial councils however did play a part). The first organized attempts for major warfare were in 1755, especially when Governors Shirley and Lawrence from Massachusetts and Nova Scotia planned the attack on Fort Beausejour, but even this was a response to French skirmishes on the western frontier, and "Father Leloutre's War" in Nova Scotia. This warmongering French priest took great pleasure at harrying rural English settlers in Nova Scotia. Leloutre was the main reason why the Expulsion (Grande Derangement) took place.
You're obfuscating.

The matter is quite simple really:
- where the French ever intent on conquering or destroying any of the 13 British colonies? No, never. There never was such a plan.

- where the British intent on conquering and destroying New France? Yes, by all means, since the middle of the 17th century already.

No need for further arguing.
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  #9946  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 5:38 PM
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I would argue that the British touch in Quebec was also pretty light.
It was lighter than the British touch in Ireland pre-1921, or the Chinese touch in Tibet today, but it was much heavier than the French touch in Alsace. That's why, I suppose, the Québécois are neither an independent nation who fought a bloody war of liberation to get rid of the British Empire, but they are neither a fully integrated part of Canada. They stand somewhere in between.
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  #9947  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 5:40 PM
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How can one not love this thread?
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  #9948  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 5:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
It was lighter than the British touch in Ireland pre-1921, or the Chinese touch in Tibet today, but it was much heavier than the French touch in Alsace. That's why, I suppose, the Québécois are neither an independent nation who fought a bloody war of liberation to get rid of the British Empire, but they are neither a fully integrated part of Canada. They stand somewhere in between.
The indigenous people of Quebec are neither a fully integrated part of Quebec nor of Canada. They don't even stand somewhere in between.

In the event of a OUI vote, anything can be on the table. I personally think it wouldn't come to Quebec partition, but if Canada is divisible, so too is Quebec. Maybe the federalist parts of Quebec could have their own referendums?



Indeed, how can one not love this thread?
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  #9949  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 6:02 PM
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In the event of a OUI vote, anything can be on the table. I personally think it wouldn't come to Quebec partition, but if Canada is divisible, so too is Quebec. Maybe the federalist parts of Quebec could have their own referendums?
It's been discussed before. It's extremely unlikely Québec would lose any territory, due to the 'uti possidetis' principle of international law (which is why Bosnia was not partitioned when it seceded from Yugoslavia despite containing large regions inhabited by the Serbs, which you'll admit was quite unfair to the Serbs). It's also unlikely due to Realpolitik reasons. Neither rump Canada nor the US would want a hostile and bitter neighbor, and all that just for some mostly empty wildernesses that would be a burden to Ottawa anyway.
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  #9950  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 7:01 PM
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It's been discussed before. It's extremely unlikely Québec would lose any territory, due to the 'uti possidetis' principle of international law (which is why Bosnia was not partitioned when it seceded from Yugoslavia despite containing large regions inhabited by the Serbs, which you'll admit was quite unfair to the Serbs). It's also unlikely due to Realpolitik reasons. Neither rump Canada nor the US would want a hostile and bitter neighbor, and all that just for some mostly empty wildernesses that would be a burden to Ottawa anyway.
Well, that "empty wilderness" has a ton of natural resources.

But of course, there is not much of that that is in Quebec that Canada-outside-Quebec doesn't also have plenty of as well.

There are lots of reasons why a hypothetical independent Quebec is very very likely to keep the same borders.

We've gone over them more than a few times on here, have we not?
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  #9951  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 7:10 PM
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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
It's been discussed before. It's extremely unlikely Québec would lose any territory, due to the 'uti possidetis' principle of international law (which is why Bosnia was not partitioned when it seceded from Yugoslavia despite containing large regions inhabited by the Serbs, which you'll admit was quite unfair to the Serbs). It's also unlikely due to Realpolitik reasons. Neither rump Canada nor the US would want a hostile and bitter neighbor, and all that just for some mostly empty wildernesses that would be a burden to Ottawa anyway.
If you think Bosnia is a good example for not having to worry about losing any territory I don't know what to say to you.
     
     
  #9952  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 7:23 PM
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Well, that "empty wilderness" has a ton of natural resources.
Depends which part we're talking about.

The hydro-electric ressources are located essentially in unpopulated areas. None in the Inuit territory of Nunavik in particular, and none in the Cree settlements along the Hudson Bay.

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  #9953  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 7:25 PM
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If you think Bosnia is a good example for not having to worry about losing any territory I don't know what to say to you.
If you think Canada is similar to Yugoslavia and Québec's secession would be like Bosnia seceding from Yugoslavia, then I don't know what to say to you.
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  #9954  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 7:27 PM
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Bosnia is arguably an example of uti possidetis juris being the rule everyone always follows, even if the consequences can somethimes be disastrous and tragic.
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  #9955  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 7:32 PM
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Depends which part we're talking about.

The hydro-electric ressources are located essentially in unpopulated areas. None in the Inuit territory of Nunavik in particular, and none in the Cree settlements along the Hudson Bay.

I wasn't just thinking about hydro resources but sure, this is right.

The Cree are considered to have some form of ownership over the lands where those hydro dams are, even if they don't inhabit them. They are their traditional hunting grounds for example.

In any event, the Cree have long-term legal agreements with Hydro-Québec allowing the public utility to use the lands for hydroelectric production, and probably for the transmission lines through traditional Indigenous lands as well.
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  #9956  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 7:35 PM
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I wasn't just thinking about hydro resources
What sort of potential natural ressources are there in Nunavik? I can't think of any.
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  #9957  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 7:39 PM
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What sort of potential natural ressources are there in Nunavik? I can't think of any.
The mining potential there is quite significant.

For example, as the world appetite for lithium increases, Quebec could be a major source of it.
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  #9958  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 7:50 PM
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^^That's assuming the various environmentalist groups let you exploit these mining ressources...
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  #9959  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 7:53 PM
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Of course. We are just talking potential.
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  #9960  
Old Posted Sep 12, 2024, 8:06 PM
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If you think Canada is similar to Yugoslavia and Québec's secession would be like Bosnia seceding from Yugoslavia, then I don't know what to say to you.


Hyrdo resources are absolutely on Cree territory. They have blocked projects and a court decision made Quebec negotiate a three way deal.

All to say it might not be likely as they can probably buy the small number of Cree who live there. Like the whole north is less than 50k I believe. Cash delivered to some chiefs and a better deal on the hyrdo probably placates them but it has the potential to go bad quickly. If you don't think OKA but with Canada's Army on the side of the Indigenous is possible than you are more optimistic than me.
     
     
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