OC Transpo

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

With Department of National Defence Headquarters moving to Carling Campus, (soon to be followed by Canadian Joint Operations Command from Startop) that's well over 10,000 people not being in the City Centre. Many of those folks came from Orleans and who took a single bus from from their home to 101 Col By. Now most of those folks are driving to Carling Campus. Add to the fact that the LRT will not go by NDHQ Carling (Moodie stop is 1.5 km from the closest gate) NONE of those folks are going to be getting out of their cars.
Bravo City of Ottawa (and National Defence for not initiating discussions with OC transpo)

The frequent shuttle (15 minutes) with fairly regular cancelled trips will be enough ......................... to scare away most of the remaining transit riders.

[Acajack]

This is an excellent point though for information none of the Orleans people I have in mind are DND people.

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

With Department of National Defence Headquarters moving to Carling Campus, (soon to be followed by Canadian Joint Operations Command from Startop) that's well over 10,000 people not being in the City Centre. Many of those folks came from Orleans and who took a single bus from from their home to 101 Col By. Now most of those folks are driving to Carling Campus. Add to the fact that the LRT will not go by NDHQ Carling (Moodie stop is 1.5 km from the closest gate) NONE of those folks are going to be getting out of their cars.
Bravo City of Ottawa (and National Defence for not initiating discussions with OC transpo)

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am quite surprised and almost shocked at how many people I know who live in Orleans, work downtown, have completely written off OC Transpo, and are now driving all the way downtown and paying for parking.

For a suburb, Orleans used to be Transit Central. At least for trips to downtown Ottawa.

Even many senior executives in the public service would take OC Transpo to work.

When we lived in Orleans and bused before the pandemic, it wasn't bad. One bus to Blair every 10 minutes at rush hour, never full. When I started commuting on my own (we were back to the office before the Feds), I drove to the Orleans Park and Ride where I could take just about any bus.

Originally Posted by FrostyMug

I'm not surprised really. It used to be one trip on the same bus all the way downtown. Now it's one or two busses to get to Blair. Up and down the stairs or that tiny elevator to get to the train. Then the train. It takes considerably longer than it used to. My sense is that once the train runs to Trim some Orleans commuters will return but until then time = money and they're better off taking their chances with driving than transit.

That is odd. The City had been pretty good at making express (or whatever they are called now) routes from every corner of Orleans to Blair. And they drop you off at the "urban" bus loop on the mall side? All the Orleans buses usually stop at the platform just below the train. The "urban" bus loop is for the dirty inner Greenbelt residents and college students that don't deserve a fare paid zone or big modern double elevators.

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

With Department of National Defence Headquarters moving to Carling Campus, (soon to be followed by Canadian Joint Operations Command from Startop) that's well over 10,000 people not being in the City Centre. Many of those folks came from Orleans and who took a single bus from from their home to 101 Col By. Now most of those folks are driving to Carling Campus. Add to the fact that the LRT will not go by NDHQ Carling (Moodie stop is 1.5 km from the closest gate) NONE of those folks are going to be getting out of their cars.
Bravo City of Ottawa (and National Defence for not initiating discussions with OC transpo)

If they ever get that automated bus loop, or any sort of mini bus loop, maybe bike share, or a secure bike locker where people can leave their bikes overnight, it wouldn't be so bad. There are ways of mitigating this. We just need the will, which we don't.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

If they ever get that automated bus loop, or any sort of mini bus loop, maybe bike share, or a secure bike locker where people can leave their bikes overnight, it wouldn't be so bad. There are ways of mitigating this. We just need the will, which we don't.

My faith that anyone in this city(in conjunction with DND) will design and deliver a decent system to cover that 1.5 km is less than zero.

[lrt's friend]

Reviewed trip planner and compared current schedules
and proposed schedules for a trip between the Rideau Centre and my house.

Current schedules - 40 to 50 minutes off-peak and 35 to 40 minutes during peak hours.

Proposed schedules - 50 to 60 minutes off-peak and 45 to 50 minutes peak.

Interestingly, there was no consistency on the best routing. Currently, best routing is mostly via the SE Transitway as expected. In future, it was all over the place via Hurdman, St. Laurent or Elmvale. Seldom was Line 2 via Bayview even suggested. Actually, the current R2 bus was more often suggested. R2 runs more frequently than Line 2 in the future?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by FrostyMug

I'm not surprised really. It used to be one trip on the same bus all the way downtown. Now it's one or two busses to get to Blair. Up and down the stairs or that tiny elevator to get to the train. Then the train. It takes considerably longer than it used to. My sense is that once the train runs to Trim some Orleans commuters will return but until then time = money and they're better off taking their chances with driving than transit.

I know people are displeased with transit service right now but I did a quick check on the route planner from the various addresses around Orleans of friends and relatives.

Nowhere either in peak hours or midday requires you to take 2 buses to get to Blair. Everywhere has one-bus service to Blair.

Though I'd agree that perhaps the old one-seat express bus ride to downtown along buses-only lanes on the 174 followed by the Transitway was pretty hard to beat.

[DogsWithJobs]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Really? I don't know a single junior bureacrat living remotely as frugally as previous generations did. They all take trips abroad. Eat out 2+ but often 5+ times per week. Buy new clothes monthly. Any of those were rare for Boomers making $30k as junior bureaucrat 10 years into their career in 1997.

Looking at past collective agreements(oldest I can find is from 2000), the lowest pay for an AS-01 in the year 2000 was 36,733
As of June 2024, the lowest AS-01 makes 61,786.

So what I can tell from this is that no one ten years into their career in the PS in 97 was making 30k.

Also, the current pay is actually lower than inflation says it should be using the bank of Canada calculator (not a huge gap but still less)

When we consider that housing isn't even considered in inflation, I fail to see how you think public servants today have it easier than those in the past.

Perhaps because air travel has gotten relatively cheaper over time, that could explain the vacations.

But, unless you actually know what the positions of the employees you are comparing are, it is not particularly useful comparison. A junior in a specialized field will be paid better than someone in a non-specialized field.

It is also important to note the increase in dual income households as well as childless households over that period.

All that to say your perception seems to be out of touch with the reality for those starting their careers today. I do not think it is better now than it was back then, in fact if anything the numbers suggest things have gotten worse.

[Acajack]

Just curious but does OC Transpo have a service you can subscribe to to get info on service disruptions, runs that are cancelled, either for the entire system or for specific routes you can choose to focus on?

And is it linked to the Transit app in real time?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Just curious but does OC Transpo have a service you can subscribe to to get info on service disruptions, runs that are cancelled, either for the entire system or for specific routes you can choose to focus on?

And is it linked to the Transit app in real time?

I use the Transit app. And OC Transpo absolutely blows at feeding it in information. Good on STO for working with the app.

[Acajack]

On Transit the runs that are cancelled still appear but with a strike through.

STO also has a Twitter account which posts cancellations and delays more or less in real time.

I am also subscribed to email service alerts for the specific routes I use the most.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by DogsWithJobs

Looking at past collective agreements(oldest I can find is from 2000), the lowest pay for an AS-01 in the year 2000 was 36,733
As of June 2024, the lowest AS-01 makes 61,786.

So what I can tell from this is that no one ten years into their career in the PS in 97 was making 30k.

Also, the current pay is actually lower than inflation says it should be using the bank of Canada calculator (not a huge gap but still less)

When we consider that housing isn't even considered in inflation, I fail to see how you think public servants today have it easier than those in the past.

Perhaps because air travel has gotten relatively cheaper over time, that could explain the vacations.

But, unless you actually know what the positions of the employees you are comparing are, it is not particularly useful comparison. A junior in a specialized field will be paid better than someone in a non-specialized field.

It is also important to note the increase in dual income households as well as childless households over that period.

All that to say your perception seems to be out of touch with the reality for those starting their careers today. I do not think it is better now than it was back then, in fact if anything the numbers suggest things have gotten worse.

He's gone a long history of being the avocado toast meme personified on this forum.

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

edit.

What is the context of your comment?
That there are so many people in the CAF HQ, or
That Canada has a military force at all?

Look at his nick. Should give you a clue. Hopefully, is not appropriation.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

He's gone a long history of being the avocado toast meme personified on this forum.

Sure I am in the zero sympathy for them crowd but this discussion was more about those that are now in the suburbs. How they spent 10 years ago being indicative of how they will spend how. Will they pay for parking or get on the bus like their parents did. Ottawa has always been an outlier. The first time I visited Ottawa I was shocked my Girlfriends dad took the bus to his job as a DG. That was not normal in most of the rest of North America. Subway maybe but the bus it's pretty rare. Between the Avocado toast lifestyle and YOLO pandemic I don't see that coming back whatever parking costs.

We will see. I was at a BBQ in an inner suburb this week with lots of suburbanites civil servants who stopped off on their way home and absolutely the theme conversation was how bad traffic and parking are and it seems unsustainable to them. There was more talk of doctors notes to get out of in person than their was switching to the bus though. The congestion to force people onto transit theory might yet be proven right. People are certainly feeling it.

[rocketphish]

NOTE: The off-topic NDHQ staffing tangent has been moved here:

https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=208849

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Sure I am in the zero sympathy for them crowd but this discussion was more about those that are now in the suburbs. How they spent 10 years ago being indicative of how they will spend how. Will they pay for parking or get on the bus like their parents did. Ottawa has always been an outlier. The first time I visited Ottawa I was shocked my Girlfriends dad took the bus to his job as a DG. That was not normal in most of the rest of North America. Subway maybe but the bus it's pretty rare. Between the Avocado toast lifestyle and YOLO pandemic I don't see that coming back whatever parking costs.

You seem to have difficulty understanding how time works. Somebody who was entry level 10 years ago is not entry level today. The people you know have advanced in their careers and are getting paid more. Meanwhile, as described above, pay relative to inflation has been stagnant or worse, leaving those who are entry level today worse off. An AS-01 making $61k most definitely cannot afford to drive in 3-4x per week at $20/day. Twice a week maybe. But at least we've finally moved on from "most junior bureaucrats make six figures".

Originally Posted by YOWetal

We will see. I was at a BBQ in an inner suburb this week with lots of suburbanites civil servants who stopped off on their way home and absolutely the theme conversation was how bad traffic and parking are and it seems unsustainable to them. There was more talk of doctors notes to get out of in person than their was switching to the bus though. The congestion to force people onto transit theory might yet be proven right. People are certainly feeling it.

They are coming to terms with it. It's a grieving process accepting that their old lifestyle is gone. They need a few more weeks of being stuck in traffic before some of them start reluctantly giving in to the idea that maybe the bus is better. It won't be all of them by any stretch. But we'll start seeing a trickle back. And if we ever go back to 4-5x per week? It'll become a flood.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You seem to have difficulty understanding how time works. Somebody who was entry level 10 years ago is not entry level today. The people you know have advanced in their careers and are getting paid more. Meanwhile, as described above, pay relative to inflation has been stagnant or worse, leaving those who are entry level today worse off. An AS-01 making $61k most definitely cannot afford to drive in 3-4x per week at $20/day. Twice a week maybe. But at least we've finally moved on from "most junior bureaucrats make six figures".

That is in fact my point. The Uber to work Avocado toast crowd who mostly did get in the housing market in Ottawa is the suburban driver of today And certainly junior bureacrats are making 6 figures. An EC 5 (I know one who is 25 years old. Starts at $100k. AS1 is a very low category with AS2 and 3 still only admin assistants. For sure they won't be spending that on parking. Though often they actually have government provided monthly parking.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

They are coming to terms with it. It's a grieving process accepting that their old lifestyle is gone. They need a few more weeks of being stuck in traffic before some of them start reluctantly giving in to the idea that maybe the bus is better. It won't be all of them by any stretch. But we'll start seeing a trickle back. And if we ever go back to 4-5x per week? It'll become a flood.

We will see. As you said job cuts are probably coming before anything comes to a head in a major way.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

That is in fact my point. The Uber to work Avocado toast crowd who mostly did get in the housing market in Ottawa is the suburban driver of today And certainly junior bureacrats are making 6 figures. An EC 5 (I know one who is 25 years old. Starts at $100k. AS1 is a very low category with AS2 and 3 still only admin assistants. For sure they won't be spending that on parking. Though often they actually have government provided monthly parking.


.

I would say that's extremely rare, and even at more suburban federal office campuses like CSIS, CRNC, CSE or Library & Archives in Gatineau, the parking is not free AFAIK. (But sure, it's cheaper than downtown parking.)

To my knowledge, even executives don't have free parking in the federal government. Though perhaps Deputy Ministers are an exception. Or maybe they have drivers on staff?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You seem to have difficulty understanding how time works. Somebody who was entry level 10 years ago is not entry level today. The people you know have advanced in their careers and are getting paid more. Meanwhile, as described above, pay relative to inflation has been stagnant or worse, leaving those who are entry level today worse off. An AS-01 making $61k most definitely cannot afford to drive in 3-4x per week at $20/day. Twice a week maybe. But at least we've finally moved on from "most junior bureaucrats make six figures".

.

Especially if that AS-01 has 1-2-3 young kids, a house with a variable rate mortgage, etc.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

That is in fact my point. The Uber to work Avocado toast crowd who mostly did get in the housing market in Ottawa is the suburban driver of today And certainly junior bureacrats are making 6 figures. An EC 5 (I know one who is 25 years old. Starts at $100k. AS1 is a very low category with AS2 and 3 still only admin assistants. For sure they won't be spending that on parking. Though often they actually have government provided monthly parking.

In what world is an EC-5 a normal entry level job?

According to the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, one third of Federal Public Servants make six figures:

More than 110,000 federal bureaucrats took home a six-figure base salary in 2023, according to access-to-information records obtained by the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.

The number of bureaucrats taking a six-figure salary is now roughly one-third of the overall federal workforce, according to the records.

https://www.taxpayer.com/newsroom/more-than-110k-federal-bureaucrats-take-six-figure-salary

This means, it's very unlikely for the average "junior" bureaucrat to be making six figures. I think your understanding of what "entry level", "junior" and "average" mean are statistically skewed. You've hung around upper class public servants for so long, you've forgotten what normal people are like.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

We will see. As you said job cuts are probably coming before anything comes to a head in a major way.

Job cuts or not, traffic and parking costs will drive back some chunk of drivers. If there's cuts, that will free up room for more to drive. But cuts aren't very likely until 2026 at least. New government has to get in and then map out a new DRAP and Strategic Review before handing out layoffs. That's more than enough time for some folks to reacquaint themselves with how much this mayor and council broke OC Transpo while they were stuck at home.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I would say that's extremely rare, and even at more suburban federal office campuses like CSIS, CRNC, CSE or Library & Archives in Gatineau, the parking is not free AFAIK. (But sure, it's cheaper than downtown parking.)

To my knowledge, even executives don't have free parking in the federal government. Though perhaps Deputy Ministers are an exception. Or maybe they have drivers on staff?

Free no but the monthly rate is attractive once you are in the office 3-4 days a week compared to paying daily.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Especially if that AS-01 has 1-2-3 young kids, a house with a variable rate mortgage, etc.

I am routinely surprised when I talk to younger military members or even younger public servants and find out how many of them have roommates. That was rare when I was the same age and rank. Worse housing affordability means the only way to save for a downpayment (other than family money) is with roommates. Living in a one bedroom apartment like before won't cut it. And sure, some of those savings do get diverted to vacations and avocado toast. They gotta have some way to blow steam once in a while. For most of these folks 2-3 days a week at home was great. Solid money savings. Anything at 3+ days a week and at least some of them will be looking at how to cut commuting costs. And if they can't carpool, well transit is the solution.