OC Transpo

[acottawa]

A lot of hyperbole from both sides on downtown parking shortages. As YOW says, the market garages never fill up. It is extremely rare for the NAC or city hall garages to fill up. The big 5 level parking garages like Minto and WEP rarely fill up. The Rideau Centre rarely fills up.

I think people are confusing the disappearance of he little mom and pop lots with an overall loss of parking.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

A lot of hyperbole from both sides on downtown parking shortages. As YOW says, the market garages never fill up. It is extremely rare for the NAC or city hall garages to fill up. The big 5 level parking garages like Minto and WEP rarely fill up. The Rideau Centre rarely fills up.

They don't have to fill up. They just have to be expensive. Which they are. And many of them are far from where people work. Or at least far enough to make driving less of a timesaver, if those are your parking options. Also, your reference is today (a time when public servants work two days in the office). There will be a lot more people and far fewer lots in the future. Every lot that gets developed will help fill in those garages more and they'll price accordingly.

Originally Posted by acottawa

I think people are confusing the disappearance of he little mom and pop lots with an overall loss of parking.

How many new public garages being built in the core to replace all those "mom and pop lots"? Also, you are trying to imply these are small. But some of the lots developed held 100+ cars. Putting that in a parking structure would cost the city tens of millions. See the Glebe parking structure.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

They don't have to fill up. They just have to be expensive. Which they are. And many of them are far from where people work. Or at least far enough to make driving less of a timesaver, if those are your parking options. Also, your reference is today (a time when public servants work two days in the office). There will be a lot more people and far fewer lots in the future. Every lot that gets developed will help fill in those garages more and they'll price accordingly.

Everyone has their own definition of what is expensive and cheap, but I suspect in an era where even relatively junior bureaucrats make over 100k and a combo at a fast food place costs $15, that $22 for parking 3 times a week will not induce someone to take a challenging transit trip as many here are describing.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

How many new public garages being built in the core to replace all those "mom and pop lots"? Also, you are trying to imply these are small. But some of the lots developed held 100+ cars. Putting that in a parking structure would cost the city tens of millions. See the Glebe parking structure.

The newly built condo on top of Lyon station has public parking. The new condo between Sparks and Queen has public parking. Those are the newest downtown condos as far as I know. Newish-buildings like the Shoppers Drug Mart building on Bank and the former Shopify building on Elgin have public parking. I would expect that at least some of the other condos under construction have public parking. It is an easy revenue source for a developer.

[OTSkyline]

Not sure where these $15/day parking spots are... downtown is pretty much all in the $20-$22-$25/day now, but still not convincing people to take transit.

Look at the horror show today. First week after the long weekend where the 3-days a week in the office is mandated and the LRT is not working *AGAIN*. The 417, Parkways, Carling, are all red and bumper to bumper since pre-7am... This is just the beginning.

[Acajack]

15 dollars a day is even considered something of a bargain in Vieux-Hull if it's within reasonable walking distance from the federal buildings.

Everyone I hear from seems to be paying at least 20 dollars a day in downtown Ottawa. Maybe 18 as the deal of the century and that's if they're willing to walk 20 minutes or more.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

Look at the horror show today. First week after the long weekend where the 3-days a week in the office is mandated and the LRT is not working *AGAIN*. The 417, Parkways, Carling, are all red and bumper to bumper since pre-7am... This is just the beginning.

Given the number of single-occupant commuter vehicles I see on the road, the "horror show" of being in a car stuck in traffic is entirely self-inflicted.

When I entered the work force back in the [DECADE REDACTED], it was very common for people who lived in the same suburb or even far-flung borough of the old city of Ottawa to share rides.

I don't know ANY carpoolers these days. Not. One. Everyone who commutes in a private auto, does so alone.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Everyone has their own definition of what is expensive and cheap, but I suspect in an era where even relatively junior bureaucrats make over 100k and a combo at a fast food place costs $15, that $22 for parking 3 times a week will not induce someone to take a challenging transit trip as many here are describing.

3x per week? No. I said that before. Anything beyond that, and it starts adding up. Also, to reiterate, these are current rates, largely based on the last few years of 2x per week office attendance. Lots operators will adjust as demand rises.

Also, I will add that junior bureaucrats making six figures and not caring about $22/day is Avocado Toast level of delusion. Those same junior bureaucrats have also seen housing and other living costs go up far faster than pay at those levels. Not unusual these days for a lot more of these folks to be living far more frugally than previous generations at those grade levels.

Originally Posted by acottawa

The newly built condo on top of Lyon station has public parking. The new condo between Sparks and Queen has public parking. Those are the newest downtown condos as far as I know. Newish-buildings like the Shoppers Drug Mart building on Bank and the former Shopify building on Elgin have public parking. I would expect that at least some of the other condos under construction have public parking. It is an easy revenue source for a developer.

So other than an office building (which tend to have some parking for employees and visitors), not much. Developers hate building parking, especially if they have to bury it, which is expensive. It drives up costs substantially and the returns are usually very poor. If it was different, we wouldn't see literally every condo being built with less than 1:1 parking ratios in the downtown core.

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

Not sure where these $15/day parking spots are... downtown is pretty much all in the $20-$22-$25/day now, but still not convincing people to take transit.

Paying $20-25 for 2x per week when you work 3x per week at home and are eating food from your fridge instead of food court was no big deal. Every day that gets added to the RTO side of the ledger makes that math worse. At 3x per week, fewer people will drive. At 4x per week, even fewer. And I think we can safely bet at this point that once there's a change of government, we're probably going to be back to 5x per week.

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

Look at the horror show today. First week after the long weekend where the 3-days a week in the office is mandated and the LRT is not working *AGAIN*. The 417, Parkways, Carling, are all red and bumper to bumper since pre-7am... This is just the beginning.

It's going to be like this for a few months. It'll level out eventually as some folks finally give in and start taking transit again. Downs-Thomson paradox in effect.

Also, we should get some relief when the new government lays off tens of thousands of public servants in 2026/207, exactly as Stage 2 East and West come into service adding capacity to the system.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Also, I will add that junior bureaucrats making six figures and not caring about $22/day is Avocado Toast level of delusion. Those same junior bureaucrats have also seen housing and other living costs go up far faster than pay at those levels. Not unusual these days for a lot more of these folks to be living far more frugally than previous generations at those grade levels.

Really? I don't know a single junior bureacrat living remotely as frugally as previous generations did. They all take trips abroad. Eat out 2+ but often 5+ times per week. Buy new clothes monthly. Any of those were rare for Boomers making $30k as junior bureaucrat 10 years into their career in 1997. They survived the total hunger games layofss are were about to start great raises for 15 years straight but they were the original cheapies who didn't want to pay the then $10? for parking so took the bus. Even $30 an hour is less labour for a parking spot then they were paying.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Paying $20-25 for 2x per week when you work 3x per week at home and are eating food from your fridge instead of food court was no big deal. Every day that gets added to the RTO side of the ledger makes that math worse. At 3x per week, fewer people will drive. At 4x per week, even fewer. And I think we can safely bet at this point that once there's a change of government, we're probably going to be back to 5x per week.

Agree with all of this though monthly parking and walking a bit is an option. I see signs in the market as cheap as $75 a month for surface parking. If you are willing to park in China Town for Kent or by the 417 for Laurier there is probably the same available.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's going to be like this for a few months. It'll level out eventually as some folks finally give in and start taking transit again. Downs-Thomson paradox in effect.

I wonder. Some will for sure. I went to a Doctor's appointment today and it was a mad house out there. Even at 10 driving back to the centre was gridlock.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Also, we should get some relief when the new government lays off tens of thousands of public servants in 2026/207, exactly as Stage 2 East and West come into service adding capacity to the system.

This is for sure. Those same free spending junior bureacrats with no savings probably flee Ottawa rather than wait out the next cycle which is not what happened in the 90s.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

So other than an office building (which tend to have some parking for employees and visitors), not much. Developers hate building parking, especially if they have to bury it, which is expensive. It drives up costs substantially and the returns are usually very poor. If it was different, we wouldn't see literally every condo being built with less than 1:1 parking ratios in the downtown core.

I literally just named the two most recent condos built downtown.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I noticed how suddenly LeBreton has filled up with towers. But I agree, downtown is exploding with homeless people.

LeBreton is moving fairly well now after a couple decades of slow progress. Claridge is completing its first tower on the site. Hopefully tower two will start soon. Dream is currently building 601 units in one go. I suspect we'll see movement at the Flats District within the next couple years. We'll have seen far more progress between 2020-2030 than we had seen during the two decades prior.

And that's not including the stunning new library.

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

Look at the horror show today. First week after the long weekend where the 3-days a week in the office is mandated and the LRT is not working *AGAIN*. The 417, Parkways, Carling, are all red and bumper to bumper since pre-7am... This is just the beginning.

The train has been quite reliable the last year. We've only had maybe three short service disruptions (St. Laurent Station twice, and this camera malfunction today). I have more trust that the train will reliably get me to and from work within an expected timeframe than the highway.

Speaking of the highway, the Queensway "breaks" all the time.

https://x.com/CNOttawaTraffic

[dougvdh]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I literally just named the two most recent condos built downtown.

Parking in residential buildings is usually a loss leader. It costs $80- 100k to build a space, and no one wants to pay for that (either up front or in rent), so developers build only enough to market or lease the space. If people were willing to pay closer to the true cost of providing parking, there would be a lot more interest in building new garages.

But as long as public parking is priced (looking at the City here) below what it actually costs, no one is going to provide a single space more than the minimum their market study says is necessary.

[Lakeofthewood]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Really? I don't know a single junior bureacrat living remotely as frugally as previous generations did. They all take trips abroad. Eat out 2+ but often 5+ times per week. Buy new clothes monthly. Any of those were rare for Boomers making $30k as junior bureaucrat 10 years into their career in 1997. They survived the total hunger games layofss are were about to start great raises for 15 years straight but they were the original cheapies who didn't want to pay the then $10? for parking so took the bus. Even $30 an hour is less labour for a parking spot then they were paying.

Anecdotally, I know a lot of people in their 20s and 30s who don't see owning a home as something that will ever be attainable to them (not commenting on the accuracy of that mindset), therefore spending money on things like vacations or nice dinners out as a way to enjoy life is where that money goes instead.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Lakeofthewood

Anecdotally, I know a lot of people in their 20s and 30s who don't see owning a home as something that will ever be attainable to them (not commenting on the accuracy of that mindset), therefore spending money on things like vacations or nice dinners out as a way to enjoy life is where that money goes instead.

For the purposes of this thread the question is does that equate to paying $20 for parking. I think a lot of them were paying $10 to Uber from their Westboro condo to work. I had lots of colleagues doing this almost daily circa 2014. So now that they are in their exurban paradise will they miss dinner and sit in traffic or drive and pay $20. Honestly everybody who's a professional commuting to a downtown office should think if their time is worth more than that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

For the purposes of this thread the question is does that equate to paying $20 for parking. I think a lot of them were paying $10 to Uber from their Westboro condo to work. I had lots of colleagues doing this almost daily circa 2014. So now that they are in their exurban paradise will they miss dinner and sit in traffic or drive and pay $20. Honestly everybody who's a professional commuting to a downtown office should think if their time is worth more than that.

Not sure what your point is here, though.

What are the alternatives for them?

Take transit with all that that entails (waiting, delays, transfers, etc.) for 7-8 bucks a day?

Change jobs by finding an employer who allows 100% work from home? (easier said than done of course)

Move closer to the core of the city?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not sure what your point is here, though.

What are the alternatives for them?

Take transit with all that that entails (waiting, delays, transfers, etc.) for 7-8 bucks a day?

Change jobs by finding an employer who allows 100% work from home? (easier said than done of course)

Move closer to the core of the city?

My point is they will pay so the idea parking cost will fill transit seems hopeful at best. Congestion also is frustrating but ultimatley transit is still way worse for almost every trip. Anyone living at Cyrvilleand commuting to Tunney's is already taking the train.

[Acajack]

I am quite surprised and almost shocked at how many people I know who live in Orleans, work downtown, have completely written off OC Transpo, and are now driving all the way downtown and paying for parking.

For a suburb, Orleans used to be Transit Central. At least for trips to downtown Ottawa.

Even many senior executives in the public service would take OC Transpo to work.

[ponyboycurtis]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The delusion is so strong in this thread. The system is bleeding money and real cuts are being made that it's claimed will increase traffic congestion (which the same people say is only 2 hours a day so not relevant) so we should add service at 11pm when there is no traffic and riders are mostly making optional trips?

The purpose of my post was not to advocate for more late evening trip but to serve the ones that do exist.

To wait at Hurdman for an hour, take a 97 and then walk home and somehow arrive at my home stop to see my bus go by makes no sense.

On top of all this.. remember dispatch had no idea about the status of my bus. They stated it had left 40 something minutes prior.

Lack of service is one thing. Incompetence is another.

I have a hard time imagining anyone even stepping onto that 90 bus at that time? I surely was the only one stupid enough to wait that long. Surely there isn't anybody along the local route stepping on after its over an hour late to head to SK at 2am.

Maybe pull one of the empty 97s and serve the last local of the night?

[FrostyMug]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am quite surprised and almost shocked at how many people I know who live in Orleans, work downtown, have completely written off OC Transpo, and are now driving all the way downtown and paying for parking.

For a suburb, Orleans used to be Transit Central. At least for trips to downtown Ottawa.

Even many senior executives in the public service would take OC Transpo to work.

I'm not surprised really. It used to be one trip on the same bus all the way downtown. Now it's one or two busses to get to Blair. Up and down the stairs or that tiny elevator to get to the train. Then the train. It takes considerably longer than it used to. My sense is that once the train runs to Trim some Orleans commuters will return but until then time = money and they're better off taking their chances with driving than transit.

[lrt's friend]

My, what a mess. Carry over from the Line 1 failure? At 11 am, there were hundreds of people waiting at South Keys/Greenboro. Were they waiting for half an hour or more for Route 2/97/98? I would say likely. And then the first bus to finally show up was a 40 footer? When we finally got to Hurdman, we had to run for the train or wait another 10 minutes. The train was likely more crowded than at rush hour. We got off the train at Rideau to line up for fare verification.

The return trip and there was pandemonium at Hurdman. Jammed bus platforms. Why are they planning all the service cuts at Hurdman?

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am quite surprised and almost shocked at how many people I know who live in Orleans, work downtown, have completely written off OC Transpo, and are now driving all the way downtown and paying for parking.

For a suburb, Orleans used to be Transit Central. At least for trips to downtown Ottawa.

Even many senior executives in the public service would take OC Transpo to work.

With Department of National Defence Headquarters moving to Carling Campus, (soon to be followed by Canadian Joint Operations Command from Startop) that's well over 10,000 people not being in the City Centre. Many of those folks came from Orleans and who took a single bus from from their home to 101 Col By. Now most of those folks are driving to Carling Campus. Add to the fact that the LRT will not go by NDHQ Carling (Moodie stop is 1.5 km from the closest gate) NONE of those folks are going to be getting out of their cars.
Bravo City of Ottawa (and National Defence for not initiating discussions with OC transpo)