OC Transpo

[lrt's friend]

My friends decided to get together last night. When I suggested going to the fireworks, I was asked how we would get there. Transit was so unappealing that we ended up in Embrun. The reputation of OC has declined to that degree that it does not get you to your destination reliably especially in the evening, and it is only going to get worse in the future.

[OTSkyline]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

My friends decided to get together last night. When I suggested going to the fireworks, I was asked how we would get there. Transit was so unappealing that we ended up in Embrun. The reputation of OC has declined to that degree that it does not get you to your destination reliably especially in the evening, and it is only going to get worse in the future.

Very easy, traffic is very light at this time and there's plenty of free parking everywhere, very easy to get to by car. Was thinking maybe car wasn't an option but if you ended up in Embrun, it obviously was...

[eltodesukane]

Originally Posted by OTSkyline

... there's plenty of free parking everywhere, very easy to get to by car....

Not on a firework's evening.

[DTcrawler]

Originally Posted by eltodesukane

Not on a firework's evening.

Yes on a fireworks evening. I have friends who joined us for the fireworks last night. They drove from RSS and were parked in the Market within 35 min. Maybe 5-10 min worth of delays compared to typical driving times but if Ottawans can't handle that (which sadly is the case for many people in this city) then I don't know what to tell you, other than maybe it's time to start browsing listings in Elliot Lake.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Where do you see progress ?

Off the top:

- Ottawa was way off the mark compared to other cities in the new-fangled "condo" "boom" that began in the 1990s, but we are now building more multi-storey dense housing in the city centre than any time since the 1960s-70s wave. We have added thousands of households to the city centre this century.

- Bike lanes were non-existent then.

- Also non-existent: Corkstown, Adawe, Flora, Commanda bridges.

- the U of O campus was brutalism and parking lots. Lots of infill and adaptation has changed the area much for the better.

- Builders have gotten a lot better at ground-floor activities and presence, compared to the street-killers that are still killing streets 30, 40, 50 years later.

- Mid-century "ribbon suburbs", much despised by Greber, are urbanizing - Richmond Road, Beechwood come to mind. Hopefully the Boomer-era suburban stroads will soon start seeing the same, if we allow and encourage it.

Over the past (mumbles number under breath) decades, urban Ottawa has gotten a LOT more urban, and a lot more appreciative of the urban. A lot of anti-urban biases, beliefs, and misapprehensions have diminished.

Unfortunately, the suburbs grew, and were permitted, encouraged, and subsidized to grow, at a much faster rate.

And compared to other larger Canadian metro areas in the Not-T/M/V category, which other one has enough old-school "urban fabric" to play with as a baseline for embracing urbanism? Calgary and Edmonton certainly don't. Winnipeg, Hamilton, London, Halifax, Quebec, Victoria, etc. have lots of interesting "fabric", but Ottawa's comparable zone is still larger than any of theirs.

I mean, I'm a crank who shits on Stupid Ottawa Stuff, but there's also some perspective to be had by visiting, like, Moncton or Barrie or something.

Even just flipping back and forth between now and some "then" on GeoOttawa will show that there's been a lot of positive change, too.

LRT phase 2 will help a lot but still leaves out a lot.

The lack of a decent, realistic, and fundamentally FAIR transit plan for the inner urban neighbourhoods is an ongoing stain on this city's politics.

[Davis137]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Off the top:

- Ottawa was way off the mark compared to other cities in the new-fangled "condo" "boom" that began in the 1990s, but we are now building more multi-storey dense housing in the city centre than any time since the 1960s-70s wave. We have added thousands of households to the city centre this century.

- Bike lanes were non-existent then.

- Also non-existent: Corkstown, Adawe, Flora, Commanda bridges.

- the U of O campus was brutalism and parking lots. Lots of infill and adaptation has changed the area much for the better.

- Builders have gotten a lot better at ground-floor activities and presence, compared to the street-killers that are still killing streets 30, 40, 50 years later.

- Mid-century "ribbon suburbs", much despised by Greber, are urbanizing - Richmond Road, Beechwood come to mind. Hopefully the Boomer-era suburban stroads will soon start seeing the same, if we allow and encourage it.

Over the past (mumbles number under breath) decades, urban Ottawa has gotten a LOT more urban, and a lot more appreciative of the urban. A lot of anti-urban biases, beliefs, and misapprehensions have diminished.

Unfortunately, the suburbs grew, and were permitted, encouraged, and subsidized to grow, at a much faster rate.

And compared to other larger Canadian metro areas in the Not-T/M/V category, which other one has enough old-school "urban fabric" to play with as a baseline for embracing urbanism? Calgary and Edmonton certainly don't. Winnipeg, Hamilton, London, Halifax, Quebec, Victoria, etc. have lots of interesting "fabric", but Ottawa's comparable zone is still larger than any of theirs.

I mean, I'm a crank who shits on Stupid Ottawa Stuff, but there's also some perspective to be had by visiting, like, Moncton or Barrie or something.

Even just flipping back and forth between now and some "then" on GeoOttawa will show that there's been a lot of positive change, too.



The lack of a decent, realistic, and fundamentally FAIR transit plan for the inner urban neighbourhoods is an ongoing stain on this city's politics.

You seem to share similar thoughts...that there has been progress/change, a lot of it positive.

I have found that Ottawa is peculiar in terms of it seems to be in conflict with itself...City Hall and other stakeholders want a lot of things in Ottawa to be "World-Class" and worthy of a national capital, and yet things are still done like it's a smaller "mom n' pop" city than it has become. The level of NIMBY-ism has been in decline, and I think Ottawa is slowly getting out of it's own way and turning into a proper big city.

I think there are strides being made to improve the urban landscape inside the greenbelt, while also reigning in the suburban sprawl outside of it that has gone on with near unregulated abandon for the last 10 years.

The amount of intensification in Confederation Heights and Riverside that has begun in the last couple of years, as well as the addition forthcoming development has been really something to watch firsthand. My neighborhood has more of an urban aesthetic to it now than when I first moved into it, and that's not a bad thing. I prefer seeing brownfields or surface parking lots be repurposed with residential and retail amenities, vs forests and farmland being glassed for endless cookie-cutter houses with hog pens for yards, devoid of any landscaping architecture.

It will be interesting to see what the future holds, especially when there is a good chance there will be a change of stewardship on the hill next fall...

[lrt's friend]

Is planned transit cuts a death wish? OC has been putting up the new signs covered with black plastic which doesn't last very long. I took a picture showing that 90 + percent of low income households who use the close by stop near me lose all service, while the relatively small number of high school students will continue to receive service. I guess the school board will fund bus service but broke Ottawa will not. We have little money to run buses with the trains costing so much. How many more transit riders are we about to flush down the t*ilet?

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We have little money to run buses with the trains costing so much.

I still don't think you understand. We "don't have" money to run any transit.

The trains are just a convenient distraction for the ignorant.

[DTcrawler]

Isn't the O-Train significantly cheaper to run than buses from a capacity perspective? I remember in the years leading up to the Line 1 launch, there was constant boasting from the city about the cost savings of switching from BRT to LRT. That's back when I naively thought the city would take all the buses and operators no longer needed for Transitway service and re-allocate them to bolster service elsewhere Nope, we retired the buses and pink slipped the drivers instead.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

Isn't the O-Train significantly cheaper to run than buses from a capacity perspective? I remember in the years leading up to the Line 1 launch, there was constant boasting from the city about the cost savings of switching from BRT to LRT. That's back when I naively thought the city would take all the buses and operators no longer needed for Transitway service and re-allocate them to bolster service elsewhere Nope, we retired the buses and pink slipped the drivers instead.

I remember those comments as well. They were repeated constantly. Well those secret contracts hid the truth, that the savings were small or none at all, and the city took advantage of any savings and added to it with semi-hidden service cuts that came in Oct 2019 and hoped that transit riders wouldn't notice. Between these cuts, a post layoff chronic driver shortage, failing trains, COVID, and further service cuts, riders have lost confidence in transit. What is worse, is that the 38 per cent loss in ridership especially on Line 1, has made the train service run at a big loss. And the financial prospects for Phase 2 is much worse with less ridership further away from downtown. This is why we got the comments last week that we can't afford to open Phase 2. How could this have turned out worse? If Phase 2 opens, expect reduced service beyond Blair, Line 3 not running downtown, and any opportunity to reduce Line 2 service south of South Keys

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

Isn't the O-Train significantly cheaper to run than buses from a capacity perspective? I remember in the years leading up to the Line 1 launch, there was constant boasting from the city about the cost savings of switching from BRT to LRT.

Those savings made a lot of assumptions about system reliability and ridership. Since the LRT system never actually achieved those numbers, the savings never materialized.

[eltodesukane]

From this (artfully abstract) video, all is very good with the O-Train!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBrFnJ91hV0
https://www.octranspo.com/en/o-train...sion-overview/

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

Isn't the O-Train significantly cheaper to run than buses from a capacity perspective? I remember in the years leading up to the Line 1 launch, there was constant boasting from the city about the cost savings of switching from BRT to LRT. That's back when I naively thought the city would take all the buses and operators no longer needed for Transitway service and re-allocate them to bolster service elsewhere Nope, we retired the buses and pink slipped the drivers instead.

The savings weren't one-to-one.

They did reallocate some resources to create the route 15, which came out of approximately ~$5M in expected savings from the launch of the LRT.

There wasn't a reinvestment of the resources that were freed up, because like every other moment in the last 20 years there hasn't been any appetite to increase the overall operational budget of OC Transpo.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I remember those comments as well. They were repeated constantly. Well those secret contracts hid the truth, that the savings were small or none at all, and the city took advantage of any savings and added to it with semi-hidden service cuts that came in Oct 2019 and hoped that transit riders wouldn't notice.

How much do you think it costs the city to operate the Confederation Line in its current form every year? The numbers are out there. They aren't a secret.

2020: $66.7M
2021: $51.2M
2022: $64.7M
2023: $77.5M
2024 (budgeted, with Line 2 opening): $98.7M

Many of the service level cuts made at the time were to shed excess capacity, not necessarily to gain additional savings. An example I'm most familiar with was the elimination of extra trips on the 44 north of Herongate during peak periods. It dropped peak service on the 44 to 15 minutes (from the previous 7 minutes), but those extra trips were largely empty through Alta Vista. The main reason they had continued to run prior to the LRT was to provide extra capacity on the Transitway into Gatineau.
With the LRT opened, that capacity was no longer needed.
I didn't like the change, and I wish it hadn't happened, but I think the context for those changes matters a lot if you're going to start making big claims with no evidence.

It's true that rail hasn't amounted to the savings expected, due to the obvious problems that the line has faced and the increased engineering cost that's placed on the city— but those cuts to bus service were a whole other problem that came from this city's refusal to reinvest in the service. Not because any expected savings falling short.

Between these cuts, a post layoff chronic driver shortage, failing trains, COVID, and further service cuts, riders have lost confidence in transit. What is worse, is that the 38 per cent loss in ridership especially on Line 1, has made the train service run at a big loss. And the financial prospects for Phase 2 is much worse with less ridership further away from downtown. This is why we got the comments last week that we can't afford to open Phase 2. How could this have turned out worse? If Phase 2 opens, expect reduced service beyond Blair, Line 3 not running downtown, and any opportunity to reduce Line 2 service south of South Keys

Remember, it's only a 7% property tax increase to maintain service at their current levels across the entire network (bus and rail). That alone is less than the increase other cities in Ontario saw last year.

You can keep blaming the LRT, but even with impending cuts it's still going to offer more service than nearly every bus route in the city.
At this point it's hard not to see how you aren't just willfully ignorant of the real problems with the transit network, and more importantly the fact that a solution to our problems is staring you right in the face.

[lrt's friend]

The public is not getting the whole story and the public has no control over the transit budget and little control over the municipal budget. Control over this is almost entirely in the hands of the mayor. Even our councillors have very limited say and therefore, have limited say in transit planning affecting their wards. Public input meetings are a waste of time. I have spoken at such meetings, problems have been acknowledged but it appears that hands are tied based on what has come down from the mayor's office. At the moment, the mayor is battling with the province and feds over transit funding. For an individual, there is virtually no input into any of these processes and for most of the public, this is beyond them.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The public is not getting the whole story and the public has no control over the transit budget and little control over the municipal budget. Control over this is almost entirely in the hands of the mayor. Even our councillors have very limited say and therefore, have limited say in transit planning affecting their wards. Public input meetings are a waste of time. I have spoken at such meetings, problems have been acknowledged but it appears that hands are tied based on what has come down from the mayor's office. At the moment, the mayor is battling with the province and feds over transit funding. For an individual, there is virtually no input into any of these processes and for most of the public, this is beyond them.

This mostly makes sense to me. The mayoral election is the one people pay attention to. We voted for lower taxes. Not O'Brien or Ford slashing of service but for constraint. McKenny wasn't even offerring anything ambitous but the 2.5% tax increase was preffered over 3%. I guess there were a few other issues but at the end of the day I think that was the choice that we made.

Now nobody wants cuts. The financial situation is what it is. We have see a 7% tax increase and get more or less the status quo. We can see drastic cuts and keep taxes steady or we could see some kind of new taxation or massive increase and improve the network. I think we will get the first with Sutcliffe claiming he was draggged into it with no choice.

[Admiral Nelson]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

We have see a 7% tax increase and get more or less the status quo. We can see drastic cuts and keep taxes steady or we could see some kind of new taxation or massive increase and improve the network. I think we will get the first with Sutcliffe claiming he was draggged into it with no choice.

Yeah, could be that Sutcliffe is publicly whinging about fairness to Ottawa as a way to blame an upcoming 7% municipal tax increase on the other levels of government.

No doubt the mayor's not enjoying the prospect of overseeing a staggering decline in city services to keep his irresponsible 2.5% promise, even if he's no friend to transit.

[lrt's friend]

Part of problem dates back to the opening of Line 1. The trains were only half the problem. Many bus routes had service cut and reliability crashed because too many drivers left the system. Now being a bus driver is only a short-term job, which makes recruitment more difficult. The 6 month lead up to COVID left a bitter taste for many transit riders. COVID gave many people time to reassess transit and this is the outcome. The problem is that you cannot continue to cut your way to a solution. At least some people realize that ongoing cuts will lead more to leave transit especially if we plan transfers badly. How do we stop the spiral without some strategic investment?

[DTcrawler]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

How do we stop the spiral without some strategic investment?

We can't. That much should be obvious but I don't think many residents realize it unfortunately. You get what you pay for and Sutcliffe and his voters are learning that the hard way, albeit McKenney's plan may not have yielded a much different result. Years and years of penny pinching by various administrations, long before COVID and Line 1 were a thing, have led us to this point.

At this point it will either take a political martyr or reaching a crippling mobility crisis to change course, and I'd bet it will end up being the latter. We are literally following in the GTA's shoes instead of learning from their mistakes while we still can.

[lrt's friend]

We cannot spend billions and end up with a train running at the speed of a bicycle. How can transit be attractive with such a critical flaw. We have multiple problems and they all cost a lot of money. Can you imagine a section of the Queensway designed so that traffic runs at bicycle speed all day, every day?

[DTcrawler]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We cannot spend billions and end up with a train running at the speed of a bicycle. How can transit be attractive with such a critical flaw. We have multiple problems and they all cost a lot of money. Can you imagine a section of the Queensway designed so that traffic runs at bicycle speed all day, every day?

I don't think constant hyperbolization of the issue is necessary. Are you referring to the entire length of Line 1 or a specific section? As far as I know the remaining TSRs in effect are in the area around Hurdman station and the section between St. Laurent and Cyrville stations. Trains run at considerable speeds elsewhere on the line, especially in the downtown tunnel which was well worth the investment compared to the logjam of buses we used to see on Albert & Slater "Transitway" or the 2006 plan which would have been a complete waste of money without a downtown tunnel.

But yes, unfortunately penny pinching left us with permanent features such as the Hurdman S-curves and the choice of rolling stock, and only time will tell if those flaws are surmountable or not. The only thing that's for sure is that with current spending decisions, we're going in the wrong direction.