Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As for ROCers in Montreal, my guess is that a lot of them are "undocumented" or at least not on Quebec's books so they may not show up in the census officially. This is surely the case of many many students at McGill and Concordia who probably still have their parents' home in Ontario or Saskatchewan as their legal address.

Also some recently moved ROCers who weren't students but adult workers may also use addresses in Ontario or some other province in order to pay less income tax, even though they're actually living in Montreal full time.

The census is not based on legal registration though. Everybody is counted, even undocumented migrants, homeless people are vagrants. You only need to stay more than 6 months in a given place to be counted as living in that place.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The island of Montréal has 1.95 million inhabitants though, so it would take 22,000 more ROCers to add 1 percentage point to the percentage of people born in the ROC.
:

2.1 million now, 2.2 million any day now at the rate it's growing.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The census is not based on legal registration though. Everybody is counted, even undocumented migrants, homeless people are vagrants. You only need to stay more than 6 months in a given place to be counted as living in that place.

Correct, though you've named chronically undercounted groups where there are issues in spite of Statistics Canada's best efforts.

My kid was in Montreal during the last census in a building filled with students from other regions of Quebec and foreign countries. At that time the lobby where the mailboxes are was littered with unopened census envelopes addressed to the "occupant" of apartment 201, 402, etc.

Again, it's illegal to not respond to the census in Canada and they even employ people to track you down in order to get you to fill it out. But in big city apartment blocks it's almost an impossible task.

This is yet another thing where your typical ROCer from Toronto living in Montreal on the cheap (with an Ontario address) is probably going to try and lie low under the radar.

It's much harder to do that type of thing on a street like mine where everyone has a door facing the street and everyone owns their own house.

Here it's extremely rare to have neighbours with Ontario plates* on their cars for the long term, even if we're only 10 minutes from the border.

*A sure-fire sign that someone is committing residency fraud.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Correct, though you've named chronically undercounted groups where there are issues in spite of Statistics Canada's best efforts.

My kid was in Montreal during the last census in a building filled with students from other regions of Quebec and foreign countries. At that time the lobby where the mailboxes are was littered with unopened census envelopes addressed to the "occupant" of apartment 201, 402, etc.

Again, it's illegal to not respond to the census in Canada and they even employ people to track you down in order to get you to fill it out. But in big city apartment blocks it's almost an impossible task.

This is yet another thing where your typical ROCer from Toronto living in Montreal on the cheap (with an Ontario address) is probably going to try and lie low under the radar.

It's much harder to do that type of thing on a street like mine where everyone has a door facing the street and everyone owns their own house.

Here it's extremely rare to have neighbours with Ontario plates* on their cars for the long term, even if we're only 10 minutes from the border.

*A sure-fire sign that someone is committing residency fraud.

Hence why the census always has large undercounts (in the hundreds of thousands for Toronto) and the annual estimates are generally seen as more accurate.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Meanwhile, gallows humor in Paris:

Lol! I’d totally buy that if I went to that place — as well as something else that can be eaten

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Correct, though you've named chronically undercounted groups where there are issues in spite of Statistics Canada's best efforts.

My kid was in Montreal during the last census in a building filled with students from other regions of Quebec and foreign countries. At that time the lobby where the mailboxes are was littered with unopened census envelopes addressed to the "occupant" of apartment 201, 402, etc.

Again, it's illegal to not respond to the census in Canada and they even employ people to track you down in order to get you to fill it out. But in big city apartment blocks it's almost an impossible task.

This is yet another thing where your typical ROCer from Toronto living in Montreal on the cheap (with an Ontario address) is probably going to try and lie low under the radar.

It's much harder to do that type of thing on a street like mine where everyone has a door facing the street and everyone owns their own house.

Here it's extremely rare to have neighbours with Ontario plates* on their cars for the long term, even if we're only 10 minutes from the border.

*A sure-fire sign that someone is committing residency fraud.

I worked for two different censuses when I was much younger and had to do the job of contacting/visiting households who didn't complete it. It was challenging but I rarely had trouble. I only had one case that went to court where the guy got a big fine because he thought he was special.

I do see some people here who have Québec plates who may be keeping them longer than they should. But what do I know as there are people here who work for the same mining company/contractor in both provinces. I do know that for taxes the CRA can look at a T4 and see where the person has been working and paying taxes and see if the claimed residency makes sense. They have full access to municipal tax information if needed to verify. It's renters who can be a little more tricky but there are ways to find out.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I worked for two different censuses when I was much younger and had to do the job of contacting/visiting households who didn't complete it. It was challenging but I rarely had trouble. I only had one case that went to court where the guy got a big fine because he thought he was special.

I do see some people here who have Québec plates who may be keeping them longer than they should. But what do I know as there are people here who work for the same mining company/contractor in both provinces. I do know that for taxes the CRA can look at a T4 and see where the person has been working and paying taxes and see if the claimed residency makes sense. They have full access to municipal tax information if needed to verify. It's renters who can be a little more tricky but there are ways to find out.

I don't think that CRA audits province in residence. Certainly not in any substantial way. Quebec Revenu makes some publicity splash annoucnements every few years but doesn't catch more than a few people in Gatineau. Mostly people driving Ontario plated cars for years and getting ratted out by neighbours.

The census is a totally seperate process and can't be shared with other agencies. They also account for errors from non compliance.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

. It's renters who can be a little more tricky but there are ways to find out.

Correct. Residency fraud by Ontarians in Gatineau is quite rare among primary residence property owners.

I took the bus every day for years with a lady who was a Director in the Revenu Québec regional office in Hull.

She said even with snitches by neighbours it was extremely difficult to catch the fraudsters. Though this was some years ago and I think they've now found some better tricks to snare them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The census is a totally seperate process and can't be shared with other agencies. They also account for errors from non compliance.

100% correct but I still think the average person declaring Ontario residency while living in Quebec is probably unaware and will avoid like the plague something governmental that could possibly leave an e-trail or paper trail of their presence.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Correct. Residency fraud by Ontarians in Gatineau is quite rare among primary residence property owners.

I took the bus every day for years with a lady who was a Director in the Revenu Québec regional office in Hull.

She said even with snitches by neighbours it was extremely difficult to catch the fraudsters. Though this was some years ago and I think they've now found some better tricks to snare them.

It's a bit crazy that you can be a "fraudster" in your own country simply because you moved to another province. If I live in Normandy and have a car with a Normandy licence plate, I can move to Provence and keep my Normandy licence plate, nobody is going to "denounce" me. The simple thought of it seems insane...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It's a bit crazy that you can be a "fraudster" in your own country simply because you moved to another province. If I live in Normandy and have a car with a Normandy licence plate, I can move to Provence and keep my Normandy licence plate, nobody is going to "denounce" me. The simple thought of it seems insane...

It's not really about vehicle licence plates that much. Only that it's the very visible telltale sign of what it's really all about: income tax fraud.

In Canada you pay both federal and provincial income taxes. The federal taxes are the same for everyone of course but the provincial taxes vary from province to province.

In the case of someone making 100 000 CAD a year the difference between Ontario and Québec can be around 5000 CAD, in Ontario's favour. That's why some people who live in Gatineau pretend they still live in Ontario.

It's also le beurre et l'argent du beurre, since they profit from lower Ontario taxation and cheaper rents in Gatineau.

In France AFAIK there is no taxation difference between départements.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In France AFAIK there is no taxation difference between départements.

There is, actually. Not for the income tax, but for local taxes.

And I'm sure if I went to live in Spain with a French licence plate, no neighbor would denounce me to the authorities. The thought of it is crazy.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I don't think that CRA audits province in residence. Certainly not in any substantial way. .

I agree. For example in Ottawa-Gatineau there are tens thousands of people who live in one province and work in the other.

Same thing going on in places like Campbellton, Edmundston, Hawkesbury, Lloydminister.

Not to mention people who really are only in a province temporarily as opposing to trying to rip off the system.

I doubt CRA puts much effort into this - if any.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

There is, actually. Not for the income tax, but for local taxes.
.

But I assume these would be taxes on properties, which don't move from where they are located.

There is no way you can get around these, whether you are a resident or a non-resident.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

And I'm sure if I went to live in Spain with a French licence plate, no neighbor would denounce me to the authorities. The thought of it is crazy.

Under Schengen they wouldn't, because they know there would be no point.

They might if you had a non-EU plate though.

But then again we're comparing apples to oranges. There are differences within Canada that may not exist between different countries of the EU.

I suppose that maybe the best point of comparison might be at the border between France and Switzerland, near Geneva.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But I assume these would be taxes on properties, which don't move from where they are located.

There is also the taxe d'habitation, which Macron ended for low incomes, but which remains for high incomes. This depends on where you live. It would be hard to fake your residency though, as the fiscal administration in France has ways to know where people live.

Also various local taxes on businesses. I suppose a business could fake their real location in order to be within a municipality where those local taxes are lower.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Under Schengen they wouldn't, because they know there would be no point.

They might if you had a non-EU plate though.

But then again we're comparing apples to oranges. There are differences within Canada that may not exist between different countries of the EU.

Uh... Spain has a different income tax than France... Schengen has nothing to do with taxation.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I suppose that maybe the best point of comparison might be at the border between France and Switzerland, near Geneva.

There's a special tax regime there, for cross-border workers. It's a very attractive regime: residents of France who work in Switzerland pay their income tax in Switzerland where it is lower than in France.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Uh... Spain has a different income tax than France... Schengen has nothing to do with taxation.


There's a special tax regime there, for cross-border workers. It's a very attractive regime: residents of France who work in Switzerland pay their income tax in Switzerland where it is lower than in France.

In either case, I assume that the reason there are so few dénonciations is because relatively few people are abusing the system in violation of the laws.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

There is, actually. Not for the income tax, but for local taxes.

And I'm sure if I went to live in Spain with a French licence plate, no neighbor would denounce me to the authorities. The thought of it is crazy.

That's because you see the government as a seperate entitity like a fairy godmother. "The government is lowering our pensions" As if a magic money tree will pay for it. We see ourselves as taxpayers and resent others cheating the system.

In the EU there are some countries with very low car registration fees and people use this loophole. They share information to crack down on this. I think the EU is more integrated on this in many ways than we are.

[Acajack]

I assume that the numbers cited in this report are only a tiny tip of the iceberg.

https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/1987193/impots-adresse-ontario-quebec-revenu