Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Did anyone notice that 43% is a plurality, not a majority?

What's that, French speakers on the Island?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

You believe only the Israeli version of reality. It’s fairy tale we’ve been fed. There are other sources available that you could seek out with an open mind, if you wanted to. It’s totally up to you. Have a nice day.

It's usually referred to as a "narrative" in this context. Israel and the Palestinians each have their own narratives. Both are real for them, to the point of being fundamental to their identity. The two narratives cannot be reconciled. Hence generations of conflict and counting.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Did anyone notice that 43% is a plurality, not a majority?

In French it's called "majorité relative", or "majorité" in short form. "Pluralité" doesn't exist (or rather it means something different in French).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

BTW it could have been that around de-merger time Ville Mont-Royal had more anglos than francos, and that things have changed since then.

At the 2006 census in Mont-Royal it was 51.1% speak French the most at home, 36.3% English, 17.9% another language (total adds up to more than 100% due to people who reported more than one language spoken the most at home).

2021 census: French 50.5%, English 34.6%, other language 25.5% (largest ones: Mandarin Chinese, Arabic, and Vietnamese).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

In French it's called "majorité relative", or "majorité" in short form. "Pluralité" doesn't exist (or rather it means something different in French).

Yes, I am familiar with the terms.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

At the 2006 census in Mont-Royal it was 51.1% speak French the most at home, 36.3% English, 17.9% another language (total adds up to more than 100% due to people who reported more than one language spoken the most at home).

2021 census: French 50.5%, English 34.6%, other language 25.5% (largest ones: Mandarin Chinese, Arabic, and Vietnamese).

OK thanks. My sense is that in terms of Canadian official languages, Chinese speakers use mostly English, and Arabic and Vietnamese speakers use mostly French.

I note that if you watch videos of VMR town council meetings, there is an effort to be bilingual and use some English but the main working language seems to be French.

[Hecate]

Israel declared its independence on may 14 1948, that same fucking day Lebanon Egypt jordan Iraq and Syria launched an attack on the state. Israelis tried being reasonable for 70 years. And the little shits have been poking and poking and poking. Palestinians are like that little kid who can’t understand why they finally got punched after annoying someone for hours on end with that “not touching can’t get mad” crap.

Israel has every right to do what it needs to do to protect the sovereignty of its people. Which you clearly want to deny. Why should they give up their land, much of which was legally purchased before 1948? Why should they give up their rights to Jerusalem a city they built? Have you ever actually questioned the irrational demands made on Israel by the Palestinians in order for them to have peace.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

What's that, French speakers on the Island?

Island of Montréal, languages the most spoken at home:

2006 census:
- French: 56.0%
- English: 26.6%
- Other language: 22.4%

2021 census:
- French: 55.0%
- English: 30.0%
- Other language: 24.8% (the most spoken: Arabic, Spanish, Mandarin Chinese, Italian, in that order; surprisingly no Haitian Creole, also no Indian language)

In terms of French being the only most spoken language at home: 48.3% on the island of Montréal in 2021 (down from 52.6% in 2006), whereas English being the only most spoken language at home went from 23.9% in 2006 to 24.2% in 2021. The island of Montréal is undeniably becoming more Anglicized.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Island of Montréal, languages the most spoken at home:

2006 census:
- French: 56.0%
- English: 26.6%
- Other language: 22.4%

2021 census:
- French: 55.0%
- English: 30.0%
- Other language: 24.8% (the most spoken: Arabic, Spanish, Mandarin Chinese, Italian, in that order; surprisingly no Haitian Creole, also no Indian language)

In terms of French being the only most spoken language at home: 48.3% on the island of Montréal in 2021 (down from 52.6% in 2006), whereas English being the only most spoken language at home went from 23.9% in 2006 to 24.2% in 2021. The island of Montréal is undeniably becoming more Anglicized.

This is self reported so Haitians probably report French. I am shocked 25% speak another language at home it really doesnt't seem that high. I hear a lot of kids speaking in French to their Arab parents though I guess that is still reported as Arabic at home. A lot of that 30% Anglophone speaks in the public sphere in French that probably more than makes up for the 4% increase since 2006 in terms of what you here on the street. I think Anglophones are no longer only in the westend so that makes a lot of areas for sure more anglicized even if it's still predominantly French almost everywhere .

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This is self reported so Haitians probably report French.

0.6% of people on the island of Montréal reported Haitian Creole as the only language they most often speak at home. 2.9% reported Arabic. Statcan stupidly doesn't give the detail for multiple language use, so there is an unknown percentage of people who reported both French and Haitian Creole as the two most spoken languages in their homes. Same for Arabic and French.

1.4% of people on the island of Montréal reported Haitian Creole as their mother tongue. 5.4% reported Arabic. So many native speakers of Haitian Creole and Arabic do not use these languages at home anymore (or do not use them as their ONLY most spoken language at home anymore).

Finally 2.9% of people on the island of Montréal were born in Haiti. So at least half report Haitian Creole as their mother tongue.

[New Brisavoine]

Place of birth of people living on the island of Montréal in 2021:
- Québec: 55.2%
- France: 3.6%
- ROC: 3.3%
- Haiti: 2.9%
- Algeria: 2.6%
- China (incl. HK): 2.4%
- Morocco: 2.1%
- India: 2.0%
- Italy: 1.7%
- Philippines: 1.3%
- USA: 1.2%
- Lebanon: 1.1%
- Vietnam: 1.0%

Place of birth of people living in the city of Toronto in 2021:
- Ontario: 42.1%
- China (incl. HK): 6.9%
- Philippines: 5.0%
- India: 5.0%
- ROC: 4.9%
- Sri Lanka: 1.8%
- Jamaica: 1.6%
- Iran: 1.5%
- UK: 1.5%
- Italy: 1.4%
- USA: 1.3%
- Portugal: 1.3%
- Pakistan: 1.3%

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

No, Valerie Plante and Projet Montreal is firmly in the QS camp:

À Québec, Gabriel Nadeau-Dubois, le co-porte-parole de Québec solidaire (QS), a estimé que la victoire de Valérie Plante est le symbole que « la gauche peut gagner au Québec [même si] tous les pronostics et les pessimistes disaient que Projet Montréal était trop radical et une "gang" de "pelleteux" de nuages ».

« Valérie Plante a démontré qu'en faisant des propositions concrètes, l'audace n'est pas un boulet, c'est un avantage. »

Les valeurs et les intérêts politiques communs sont nombreux entre Québec solidaire et Projet Montréal, reconnaissent les deux députés. Des membres de leur comité de coordination nationale ont ouvertement milité pour la formation politique montréalaise, Manon Massé a par le passé fait un don au parti et la conjointe d'Amir Khadir, Nimâ Machouf, était colistière de Richard Bergeron (autrefois chef de Projet Montréal) aux élections de 2009.

« C'est grâce à elle que Richard Bergeron a pu rentrer pour la première fois au conseil municipal. [...] Aujourd'hui, je suis très désolé pour mon ami [qui a perdu son siège, dimanche], mais c'est le résultat des mauvais choix qu'il a faits », résume le député de Mercier.

Pour Gabriel Nadeau-Dubois, « il ne faut pas être Sherlock Holmes pour constater que les militants de Québec solidaire sont nombreux dans les rangs de Projet Montréal ». Or, si le parti se voit comme « le parti national de la gauche québécoise », il n'a pas officiellement appuyé les troupes de Valérie Plante, appelant plutôt ses militants à « aller sur le terrain pour faire avancer les candidatures progressistes ».

https://www.lapresse.ca/actualites/polit...-gauche-pavoise-a-quebec-et-a-ottawa.php

Meanwhile, gallows humor in Paris:

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Place of birth of people living on the island of Montréal in 2021:
- Québec: 55.2%
- France: 3.6%
- ROC: 3.3%
- Haiti: 2.9%
- Algeria: 2.6%

3.3% is shockingly low to me as I thought there was an influx of Anglo Canadians? A chunk of that 3.3% would also be francophones either born to parents while temporarily outside of Quebec or Francophone minorities.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

as I thought there was an influx of Anglo Canadians?

We'll have to wait for the 2026 census.

The island of Montréal has 1.95 million inhabitants though, so it would take 22,000 more ROCers to add 1 percentage point to the percentage of people born in the ROC.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

A chunk of that 3.3% would also be francophones either born to parents while temporarily outside of Quebec or Francophone minorities.

Apparently Statcan doesn't give mother tongue by place of birth. Some information is still secret it seems...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

We'll have to wait for the 2026 census.

The island of Montréal has 1.95 million inhabitants though, so it would take 22,000 more ROCers to add 1 percentage point to the percentage of people born in the ROC.


Apparently Statcan doesn't give mother tongue by place of birth. Some information is still secret it seems...

Pretty sure it does. Or at least it gives the language spoken by interprovincial migrants by province of origin and settlement. You just have to look for it but it's there. I've seen lots of reports on it.

As for ROCers in Montreal, my guess is that a lot of them are "undocumented" or at least not on Quebec's books so they may not show up in the census officially. This is surely the case of many many students at McGill and Concordia who probably still have their parents' home in Ontario or Saskatchewan as their legal address.

Also some recently moved ROCers who weren't students but adult workers may also use addresses in Ontario or some other province in order to pay less income tax, even though they're actually living in Montreal full time.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Pretty sure it does. Or at least it gives the language spoken by interprovincial migrants by province of origin and settlement. You just have to look for it but it's there. I've seen lots of reports on it.

As for ROCers in Montreal, my guess is that a lot of them are "undocumented" or at least not on Quebec's books so they may not show up in the census officially. This is surely the case of many many students at McGill and Concordia who probably still have their parents' home in Ontario or Saskatchewan as their legal address.

Also some recently moved ROCers who weren't students but adult workers may also use addresses in Ontario or some other province in order to pay less income tax, even though they're actually living in Montreal full time.

Students probably don't count sure but the idea a lot of ROC are undocumented is such a weird idea that can only come from the Quebec fantasy of being a country. This might work in Gatineau for a few business owners but you aren't living and working in Montreal for very long and trying to claim you still live in Ontario. You can't legally drive, would have health insurance issues very quickly and it's just generally not a thing.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Students probably don't count sure but the idea a lot of ROC are undocumented is such a weird idea that can only come from the Quebec fantasy of being a country. This might work in Gatineau for a few business owners but you aren't living and working in Montreal for very long and trying to claim you still live in Ontario. You can't legally drive, would have health insurance issues very quickly and it's just generally not a thing.

Not at all. Over the pandemic there were lots of news reports about Ontarians moving to Montreal for the cheaper rents but working remotely at jobs they retained in Ontario. (Also getting around the fact that most jobs based in Montreal would require French.) I would assume that most of these people did not file for Quebec residency, and of course tax purposes.

If you have someone in Ontario willing to let you use their address, how will either the Quebec or Ontario governments ever know? You can very easily keep your driver's licence and health card from Ontario.

Montreal is an hour drive from Hawkesbury or Cornwall for minor stuff and a two-hour drive from Ottawa which has all the medical services of a major city.

What's a fantasy is to think that a bunch of people wouldn't actually do this.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not at all. Over the pandemic there were lots of news reports about Ontarians moving to Montreal for the cheaper rents but working remotely at jobs they retained in Ontario. (Also getting around the fact that most jobs based in Montreal would require French.) I would assume that most of these people did not file for Quebec residency, and of course tax purposes.

If you have someone in Ontario willing to let you use their address, how will either the Quebec or Ontario governments ever know? You can very easily keep your driver's licence and health card from Ontario.

Montreal is an hour drive from Hawkesbury or Cornwall for minor stuff and a two-hour drive from Ottawa which has all the medical services of a major city.

What's a fantasy is to think that a bunch of people wouldn't actually do this.

Fair and I guess it's the undocumented word that triggered me. For sure the pandemic WFH crowd wasn't changing their residency to BC, NS or Quebec. Did they sign leases and actually move or just squat on their girlfriends couch? I gotta figure once you move you pony up the extra few grand in taxes and actually move.

[Acajack]

I believe you have 90 days to switch your driver's licence and health card when you switch provinces, and you are supposed to file your income taxes in the province you were residing in on Dec. 31 of that year.

All of this is required by law and would register you as a Quebec resident if you followed the law.

Of course no one really checks on this as it's difficult to keep track of.

For example if you sign a lease it's really only between your landlord and you. It's not really registered in any central place where the government could cross-check if everyone living in the province is on its books.

[Acajack]

And BTW it's way more than "a few business owners" who do this in Gatineau.