Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[harls]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I've bolded the French words for you. You think you write in English, but in fact half of it is French.

PS: The spelling discrepancy with today's French is just because you guys still use old French spelling from the Middle Ages (for example the word currently spelled "fait" in French was spelled "faict" until the 17th century, and -y was the standard ending in French until the 17th century, being replaced by -ie only in the 18th century).

Someone woke up from his vineyard and decided to get all saucy.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I am sure the trigger point is well before that. For some, I think anything other than a completely white-washed immigrant is a bridge too far.

Sounds like a recipe for having been angry since the 1970s.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The more extreme view of each is everyone on the street must put up christmas lights, eat pork at the street BBQ and shouldn't be allowed to use any accents.

The New York Times (and various other US media) certainly still make a point of writing Montreal and Quebec without any accents (all while dutifully writing Guantánamo and other Spanish place names with their accents).

I've always found it so funny (and revealing on many levels).

At my Ivy League university in the US I had to wait for 6 months to get my Master's degree with the accent on my name. One has to be patient! (you had to go to a special desk to make a special request to get your name written with its accents)

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

No. Assimilation means: your kids speak with the same accent as "natives" who have lived here for centuries. They share the same references (cartoons, games, jokes, etc), speak the same slang, understand and share the same historical and cultural basics of the country. They also importantly dress like the natives. And it's even better if they have the same given names (prénoms) as the natives (the Chinese, for example, keep one Chinese name that they use between themselves, but adopt a Western name to be used with other people in the Western society where they live). Armenian immigrants who arrived in France in the 1920s gave their children given names like André or Pierre, for instance. That helps tremendously for integration.

If you do all these things, and are law abiding, etc, I can tell you 95%+ of people here will simply not care at all about your skin color or where you ancestors came from. You're just "part of the family".

On the other hand, if your parents called you Latifa (despite being 3rd generation immigrants), you wear a veil, you speak with a pronounced banlieue accent, you refuse to drink any alcohol, you watch more Middle Eastern cable television than local television, you're complicated about any social gathering, refuse to be seated next to men, you're virulent about Gaza and bore everyone with Palestine, you made a point never to sing the national anthem at yearly ceremonies in high school, you don't give a damn about the history of the country, you perhaps even share videos of banlieue kids burning the national flag, etc, then yes, life is going to be a bit complicated for you... and you're probably going to say that people are racist (puh-lease!).

When a country expects complete assimilation, the immigrant will resist. The native interprets this as an unwillingness to acculturate but they fail to see the role they play in that by not creating a welcoming environment. People exile themselves to the banlieues and hold on to their culture tightly in part because they feel rejected for being themselves. A stubborn refusal to see one’s role in a relationship means that the dynamic will ossify.

This is where previously Canada excelled and is now seemingly stretched to its limits. It’s also why I don’t advocate for more immigration to Europe. I don’t think it’s healthy for either side.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I'm no fan of the faux student group and I've spoken about that before. But I can't help but wonder if the outrage and backlash would be the same if the dominant group was European. Let's say if we got a large influx of Ukrainians or Poles or Italians, etc.

If Canada was a predominantly African or Asian society, then certainly, I'd expect they'd be uneasy with large inflows of European faux students.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The New York Times (and various other US media) certainly still make a point of writing Montreal and Quebec without any accents (all while dutifully writing Guantánamo and other Spanish place names with their accents).

I've always found it so funny (and revealing on many levels).

At my Ivy League university in the US I had to wait for 6 months to get my Master's degree with the accent on my name. One has to be patient! (you had to go to a special desk to make a special request to get your name written with its accents)

It could be because Montreal and Quebec have no accent in English.

[harls]

Methinks New Brisavoine is drunk.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The veil is substantially a French obsession.

A French, Flemish, Dutch, Danish, Swedish, Austrian, Swiss, Italian, Québécois, etc obsession... A lot of people concerned methinks.

Atatürk outlawed the veil. Was he French too?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by harls

Methinks New Brisavoine is drunk.

I've never been drunk in my whole life. Also never smoke pot. Or even tobacco.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Furthermore it is ridiculous to imply that France is somehow immune to illusions of grandeur, compared to other countries and former colonial powers.

To which I respond:

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I did not say anything of the sort. I will not engage with you if you insist on bad faith arguments and complete misrepresentations and distortions of what others have said.

What's certain is French nationalists are not in favor of boosting the population by allowing lots of immigrants to come in, as the UK, Australia, Canada are doing. It's a noticeable difference.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

When a country expects complete assimilation, the immigrant will resist.

No one forces the immigrant to come live in the host country in the first place.

If you're not ready to live in Rome like the Romans, then perhaps go live in Athens? or Alexandria?

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

People exile themselves to the banlieues and hold on to their culture tightly in part because they feel rejected for being themselves.

Define "being themselves". Wearing a veil of refusing to drink alcohol is not written in someone's DNA.

Also, people live in those banlieues because of housing costs, not because of choice. As soon as they have enough money, these families flee those banlieues in fact, leaving there only the most impoverished and the most recent newcomers.

[harls]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I've never been drunk in my whole life. Also never smoke pot. Or even tobacco.

Stop spamming the thread then.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It could be because Montreal and Quebec have no accent in English.

Guantánamo or Michoacán also had no accent in English before...

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

No one forces the immigrant to come live in the host country in the first place.

If you're not ready to live in Rome like the Romans, then perhaps go live in Athens? or Alexandria?

Define "being themselves". Wearing a veil of refusing to drink alcohol is not written in someone's DNA.

Also, people live in those banlieues because of housing costs, not because of choice. As soon as they have enough money, these families flee those banlieues in fact, leaving there only the most impoverished and the most recent newcomers.

You illustrate my point well. As with any relationship, the dynamic is formed by both parties but can be fixed in place by an unwillingness of either to understand the other side. Europe can be an unwelcoming place for immigrants because it desires a kind of assimilation that creates resistance among the immigrant population. It’s not about being right or wrong, good or bad, but rather about creating healthy, functional relationships for both sides. Canada does a better job of that because we are less fixed culturally. I am not saying Europe needs to change but expecting complete assimilation is also not a viable goal. So you have a stand-off, as we see today to some degree.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Guantánamo or Michoacán also had no accent in English before...

And considering the large latino population in the US it comes as no surprise that Spanish is prioritized. The explanation is practical and obvious.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

And considering the large latino population in the US it comes as no surprise that Spanish is prioritized. The explanation is practical and obvious.

Latino immigrants read the New York Times?

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Latino immigrants read the New York Times?

You're showing a deep misunderstanding of American culture here. Latinos make up 20% of the US population and no they have not all completely assimilated, losing their identity or connection to Spanish.

[New Brisavoine]

I know American culture enough to know the New York Times now uses accents on foreign place names (but still not those of French Canada) not because of some Latino, or Eastern European, or African readership.

And it goes much beyond place names by the way. Or perhaps you're also going to find an excuse for the New York Times not writing French Canadian people's names with their accents?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

You're showing a deep misunderstanding of American culture here. Latinos make up 20% of the US population and no they have not all completely assimilated, losing their identity or connection to Spanish.

It's now dwarfed by immigration but we should also not forget that the US annexed a large amount of territory. There are people who have lived in Texas for hundreds of years. That's probably a PolSci 201 argument more than anything based in reality though if we are being honest. Internatioanally people live and die on who was where first.

[Hecate]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I know American culture enough to know the New York Times now uses accents on foreign place names (but still not those of French Canada) not because of some Latino, or Eastern European, or African readership.

And it goes much beyond place names by the way. Or perhaps you're also going to find an excuse for the New York Times not writing French Canadian people's names with their accents?

The documentary about her on Amazon prime didn’t even use the accent. lol I think most accents are just dropped for laziness. It’s not an outright attack on the culture. Regardless that doc is worth watching. Heartbreaking what she’s going through. Such a wonderful person. I always wanted to see her live.