Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Definitely the feeling I get in these discussions. I don't feel at all this is about "integration". This is definitely about:

1a) Discomfort with the amount of immigrants
1b) Discomfort at the predominant mix of immigrants.

2) Dissatisfaction that these immigrants aren't immediately dropping all their heritage.

Basically too many brown faces and too many accents.

Makes me wonder how some of you here would see me or my daughter if we passed on the street. To me integration is a rather simple definition. Learn the language, learn the culture, fit in. What they do in private life with culture or religion should largely be irrelevant unless it contravenes law or gross cultural norms (like say treatment of women).

I think it's the type of immigrants that is a big sticking point. Fake students are giving the illegal immigrant vibe that soured Americans and Australians (before htey shut it down). Legally they have full rights to work up to the weekly limit but you can see how Canadians see it as exploiting a loophole. We pride outselves on being welcoming to immigratnts compared to Americans but historically one ship arriving with illegal migrants have caused panics when they happened. Roxham road is a slow trickle but is ramping up concern.

Personally I'm all for an all urban middle class educated Indian immigration program. I think we could even accept a large number. They have a nearlly unparrelled integration track-record. I'd suggest screening out Sikhs bent on bringing their issues here and Pakistan despite as somone said being lumped together by Canadians don't have quite the same record.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You forget that it took the Italians, Jews, Ukrainians, etc took a century to get where they are. And there's plenty of people who still complain about them being too "ethnic". I'm not sure you can expect somebody who landed today to be fully assimilated in their lifetime. Their grandkids will definitely be.

Myeah. New Brisavoine spoke about Fiji earlier, and I wonder if that might not be closer to our future than the "Ellis Island" style integration and assimilation that we saw in the US and Canada until recently.

Most Indo-Fijian families are probably at the great-grandchildren stage at least at this point, and they're still very much a parallel society in that country in many ways. They're more than a third of the population as well. Their dominant position in the affairs of Fiji was swept away by Indigenous nationalism some years ago, but they still retain a considerable amount of community cohesiveness.

Not saying that it will be exactly like that here (before anyone gets excited) but there are lots of precedents of successful irredentism by immigrant communities.

It's also paradoxical that we have the same people saying that assimilation is horrible and unjust on the one hand, but also on the other hand are selling it as an inevitable end-game that's near-desirable.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well, I'd argue that the fact that these types of "suspicions" always come up on here in what is a rather intelligent, respectful discussion maybe goes a long way in explaining why nativist rhetoric has suddenly popped up in Dudley Do-Right Canada, of all places.

I mean, when it's considered crypto-racist to even suggest that a host country might be legitimate in having expectations and demands vis-à-vis newcomers... what can I say?

This is kind of a strawman. Nobody said there's anything wrong with having expectations. It's more suspicious when those expectations change....

[kool maudit]

If Gustav Vasa emerged from his tomb to Bukele the crime stats while returning the country to the 7.3% GDP growth seen in 1970, Sweden would be back on "mmm mmm I like spicy food" within a year or two and "integration" would be a socially suspicious dog-whistle, just like it was in 2014.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This is kind of a strawman. Nobody said there's anything wrong with having expectations. It's more suspicious when those expectations change....

How have they changed?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

If Gustav Vasa emerged from his tomb to Bukele the crime stats while returning the country to the 7.3% GDP growth seen in 1970, Sweden would be back on "mmm mmm I like spicy food" within a year or two and "integration" would be a socially suspicious dog-whistle, just like it was in 2014.

I can believe that and take your word for it, but obviously not every country is like that. Even in the West.

France was never like that even in the best of times.

Maybe it's a Protestant thing?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's also paradoxical that we have the same people saying that assimilation is horrible and unjust on the one hand, but also on the other hand are selling it as an inevitable end-game that's near-desirable.

Nothing paradoxical about it at all. It's been our model for centuries. We didn't expect Ukrainians who moved to the Prairies to stop speaking Ukrainian in public. Heck, they built a giant perogie out there. Their kids were a lot less Ukrainian. And their grandkids are all but indistinguishable from other Prairie Hosers with their "heritage" largely consisting of food and a few lines of Ukrainian to speak to their grandma. I don't think it will be that different for any other immigrant group. I think the problem arises from the expectation that a first generation immigrant assimilates to the same extent as third or fourth generation of past groups.

My personal discomfort (and worry) is also with those who are simply uncomfortable with the colour of my skin. That's something that can't be helped. And with some of the talk going around I worry about the future for my kids.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Makes me wonder how some of you here would see me or my daughter if we passed on the street. .

My kid might invite your kid over to swim in our pool, if they were the same age.

[Truenorth00]

It's easy to think I'm just being sensitive. But it's heartbreaking to hear my 7 year old have hangups about the colour of their skin. And then to hear that and have to read about the some of complaints about immigration that are clearly coded is well....

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I can believe that and take your word for it, but obviously not every country is like that. Even in the West.

France was never like that even in the best of times.

Maybe it's a Protestant thing?

Yeah, every country is different. And every country has both unrepentant bigots and true-believing cosmopolitans who won't be swayed by the perceived success or failure of these policies. But most people aren't like this, and they do slip up and down the charitability index to some degree based on how things seem to be going. And I think these floaters affect policy more than people with more fixed ideological stances, even if Sweden or the Netherlands are still overall more open while France or Serbia are less so.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My kid might invite your kid over to swim in our pool, if they were the same age.

For the record I don't think you give a shit about skin colour. But I do wonder if your view of "integration" is simply that my kid learn nothing about where they come from. Where's that line between integration and assimilation?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

For the record I don't think you give a shit about skin colour. But I do wonder if your view of "integration" is simply that my kid learn nothing about where they come from. Where's that line between integration and assimilation?

Integration is really tough to define and has a very different meaning in Quebec for sure.

My off the cuff view is intergration is about language and secularism and support for key Canadian markers which are largely how we differentiate ourselves from Americans. Some that come to mind. Hockey, love of outdoors, medicare, multicultralism rather than melting pot. You see a ton of Indian immigrants if you tailgate at a US College game. How many do you see at hockey matches? or camping? For sure we have unrealistic expectations. Keep playing cricket open up Indian restaurants and festivals we can enjoy but integrate.

More broadly rural Albertans might find a lot of other values aligning better with a lot of immigrants than the Laurier crowd currently in power. Schools are indoctrinating kids on a specific view of Canadian values and immigrants are key allies in pushing back on this.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

For the record I don't think you give a shit about skin colour. But I do wonder if your view of "integration" is simply that my kid learn nothing about where they come from. Where's that line between integration and assimilation?

Asking for accomodation seems to be the trigger point, at least for some.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Sorry, but that sounds like soapbox, rabble-rousing pseudo logic, which is not borne out of empirical research, but rather, out of an a priori conviction.

The Western world is just not so very white anymore. That fact lies at the root of most people's objections to widespread immigration from the four corners of the world. Take a look at third-generation Canadians, whose brown grandparents hailed from distant places: their values have largely converged to that of mainstream society, and their ethnic out-marriage rates have skyrocketed, just like their Irish, Jewish, Italian, Ukrainian, etc. counterparts of a century ago.

Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité

In the absence of drastically increasing the birthrate (something no large Western country has been able to achieve, despite numerous strategies, mostly of the financial sort, that have been implemented), immigrants from high-growth places are needed to avoid the impending fate of Japan, Italy, Korea, China, Bulgaria, Hungary (and soon, add almost all of South America to this list): places with rapidly-declining populations and in the near future, economic stagnation and a loss of global heft, both economically and politically.

With birth rates now in freefall globally (the Global South is experiencing fertility drops much faster than anyone expected, with many countries now getting old before they get rich), this ultimately isn't sustainable, though. When countries with sub-replacement fertility make up 90% of the global population (a likely scenario within a few decades), immigration becomes a zero-sum game, and no country can avoid this "impending fate" without imposing it on another. The Canadian approach, of using high levels of immigration to maintain a favourable dependency ratio, is ultimately an unsustainable ponzi scheme. If you want to have the working age to retirement age ratio to remain 4:1, it means that the number of immigrants you need to import basically quadruples every generation. (Because every new 30 year old immigrant will in turn need 4 immigrants to replace them when they retire...). You only have to continue this for a few more centuries before you've quite literally run out of humans to import.

Ultimately, we have no choice but to either grow the fertility rate to replacement, or just accept a declining population and declining workforce as an economic fact. (Raising the retirement age could be a remedy to some extent, but there's a limit to how far you can go with this barring some far-fetched sci-fi tech that prevents aging...).

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Asking for accomodation seems to be the trigger point, at least for some.

This was a big debate in Quebec and I had forgotten about it. What is reasonable is the rub but absolutely if you immmigrate to another country you should be even more cognizant of not demanding others adapt to your ways. In English Canada we are defferential to demands based on religion but Quebec rightly in my view mostly rejects this.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

This was a big debate in Quebec and I had forgotten about it. What is reasonable is the rub but absolutely if you immmigrate to another country you should be even more cognizant of not demanding others adapt to your ways. In English Canada we are defferential to demands based on religion but Quebec rightly in my view mostly rejects this.

It would usually involve being allowed to adhere to one's own ways, not imposing them on others.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Asking for accomodation seems to be the trigger point, at least for some.

I am sure the trigger point is well before that. For some, I think anything other than a completely white-washed immigrant is a bridge too far.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

With birth rates now in freefall globally (the Global South is experiencing fertility drops much faster than anyone expected, with many countries now getting old before they get rich), this ultimately isn't sustainable, though. When countries with sub-replacement fertility make up 90% of the global population (a likely scenario within a few decades), immigration becomes a zero-sum game, and no country can avoid this "impending fate" without imposing it on another. The Canadian approach, of using high levels of immigration to maintain a favourable dependency ratio, is ultimately an unsustainable ponzi scheme. If you want to have the working age to retirement age ratio to remain 4:1, it means that the number of immigrants you need to import basically quadruples every generation. (Because every new 30 year old immigrant will in turn need 4 immigrants to replace them when they retire...). You only have to continue this for a few more centuries before you've quite literally run out of humans to import.

Ultimately, we have no choice but to either grow the fertility rate to replacement, or just accept a declining population and declining workforce as an economic fact. (Raising the retirement age could be a remedy to some extent, but there's a limit to how far you can go with this barring some far-fetched sci-fi tech that prevents aging...).

And people think I am being ageist when I bring up how skewed our benefits system is. This is all even more unsustainable given our insistence that we shovel boatloads of money towards seniors.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Integration is really tough to define and has a very different meaning in Quebec for sure.

I used to think this was about learning French and accepting secularism for Quebec. Now? I am not so sure....

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It would usually involve being allowed to adhere to one's own ways, not imposing them on others.

Still devil in the details. Can I wish you Merry Christmas or are you going to claim that is some how white centric? Can I eat during the day near you during Ramadan? Do I have to use accented characters in your name? The more extreme view of each is everyone on the street must put up christmas lights, eat pork at the street BBQ and shouldn't be allowed to use any accents.