Building LeBreton Flats - Master Planning

[FrostyMug]

Interesting that a group that generally pans most new builds in Ottawa as banal and boring finds this so outrageous that it's atrocious.

It is outside the box thinking and that was the intent. I find it interesting and it pulls at the traditional notions of what should be and how it should look. Is it all realistic? Of course not, but any brainstorming session which this generally appears to be, has some ideas that are beyond farfetched. But at the same time those ideas force people to look at things a little differently. Do I believe that any grocer is going to share active floor space with a grocer as an example, no. But I also think they overlooked the obvious in their plan that if you are going to build a "25/8" community then groceries after 11:00 p.m. should probably be part of that plan.

I'd like to suggest that we encourage this sort of approach as it may get us the city we hope to see.

Lastly, "will there be free parking?" This comment wins the internet for me today!

[phil235]

Attended the Jane's Walk on Lebreton on the weekend (illegally without a reservation). Not a tonne of new information, but a few tidbits:

- the primary focus for the next couple of years will be Dream Lebreton (occupancy planned for 2026) and the Avenue 31 project along Wellington, which is currently under negotiation.
- the plan is now based on a transit/active transportation spine along the existing pathway and rail line
- there will be no N-S through streets on the site, though several pedestrian/cycling bridges are planned
- they now see the Booth St. configuration as a mistake, as it limits E-W permeability of the site.
-there is a high school design competition underway to feed into the planning of the parks district. The parks district is where it is because it was a former landfill and is not appropriate for development
- the event centre is the other active file. The planners couldn't or wouldn't say where the additional land for the Sens would be

There was also the obligatory outraged boomer complaining about how the event centre was going to be "right between two neighbourhoods" (one of which doesn't even exist). She never did explain what she preferred as a location, but I inferred it would be Pembroke.

Despite the lack of real insight, the walk was a good way to situate the various elements of the plan.

[OTownandDown]

We must have been standing beside eachother Phil!

That lady was great "right in front of this neighbourhood!? I used to live RIGHT there!" (I wanted to say 'not in front of MY salad' - if you know, you know) As if arenas don't occur in built up environments anywhere else in the world.

The organizers did a good job of explaining rationale up to a certain point. I'm a bit apprehensive on the weight of public consultation and cost limitations/cost sharing for public infrastructure with the new proponents, especially for the wellington site. Who is going to pay for unburying the 2nd aqueduct (who knew there was a 2nd one buried?) and who is going to pay for the pedestrian bridges? Its not a simple bridge to go up and over the Otrain tracks, considering they'll be of the same magnitude as the Clegg Bridge on the canal?

I also want more commercial, they seemed to think the Welldington development wouldn't really have commercial. I don't see a reason why not. They'll be empty and quiet until the remaining site is built up, but in future will provide active use at grade.

I also thought it was interesting that the OCH/CCOC units fronting Albert were on a federal lease, and that the rest of the site would be lease based development. Does this create opportunity for developers to relieve them of some upfront cost/risk? Does the City of Ottawa benefit from the least arrangement to maintain public infrastructure? Or will the NCC be paying the property taxes? How does that work?

Originally Posted by phil235

Attended the Jane's Walk on Lebreton on the weekend (illegally without a reservation). Not a tonne of new information, but a few tidbits:

- the primary focus for the next couple of years will be Dream Lebreton (occupancy planned for 2026) and the Avenue 31 project along Wellington, which is currently under negotiation.
- the plan is now based on a transit/active transportation spine along the existing pathway and rail line
- there will be no N-S through streets on the site, though several pedestrian/cycling bridges are planned
- they now see the Booth St. configuration as a mistake, as it limits E-W permeability of the site.
-there is a high school design competition underway to feed into the planning of the parks district. The parks district is where it is because it was a former landfill and is not appropriate for development
- the event centre is the other active file. The planners couldn't or wouldn't say where the additional land for the Sens would be

There was also the obligatory outraged boomer complaining about how the event centre was going to be "right between two neighbourhoods" (one of which doesn't even exist). She never did explain what she preferred as a location, but I inferred it would be Pembroke.

Despite the lack of real insight, the walk was a good way to situate the various elements of the plan.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

We must have been standing beside eachother Phil!

That lady was great "right in front of this neighbourhood!? I used to live RIGHT there!" (I wanted to say 'not in front of MY salad' - if you know, you know) As if arenas don't occur in built up environments anywhere else in the world.

The organizers did a good job of explaining rationale up to a certain point. I'm a bit apprehensive on the weight of public consultation and cost limitations/cost sharing for public infrastructure with the new proponents, especially for the wellington site. Who is going to pay for unburying the 2nd aqueduct (who knew there was a 2nd one buried?) and who is going to pay for the pedestrian bridges? Its not a simple bridge to go up and over the Otrain tracks, considering they'll be of the same magnitude as the Clegg Bridge on the canal?

I also want more commercial, they seemed to think the Welldington development wouldn't really have commercial. I don't see a reason why not. They'll be empty and quiet until the remaining site is built up, but in future will provide active use at grade.

I also thought it was interesting that the OCH/CCOC units fronting Albert were on a federal lease, and that the rest of the site would be lease based development. Does this create opportunity for developers to relieve them of some upfront cost/risk? Does the City of Ottawa benefit from the least arrangement to maintain public infrastructure? Or will the NCC be paying the property taxes? How does that work?

Ha, nice to almost meet you! I was wondering if anyone else from this group would be along for the tour. Then again, my goal that day was to generally lay low in case they decided to check tickets!

Lots of good questions. The planner gave me the general answer that the revenue from the development would pay for the infrastructure like the pedestrian bridges, but you're right that they will come with a significant cost. I have no idea what it costs to unbury the second aqueduct (which I agree is very cool), but she made it sound relatively straightforward.

Agree on the Wellington frontage. Why wouldn't you try to animate that stretch, given the number of large events that take place there? I didn't hear that part, but I hope they reconsider.

As for the leases, I'm no expert, but I think the long term leases function pretty similarly to freehold in that taxes and other obligations flow directly through and are covered by the lessee. I wasn't aware of the scope of the leasehold OCH housing on the south side. Those parcels really scream out for redevelopment when you view them from Lebreton. Though I expect that resources and efforts are going to focus on the Lebreton side.

[DTcrawler]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

I also want more commercial, they seemed to think the Welldington development wouldn't really have commercial. I don't see a reason why not. They'll be empty and quiet until the remaining site is built up, but in future will provide active use at grade.

This has been a brewing worry of mine as this project unfolds. The key to making this a vibrant district is ground level commercial/retail space. The arena alone won't make the area lively - fans and concertgoers need bars and restaurants to frequent pre and post event. I thought that was the entire point of moving to a central location - to give people options in the immediate vicinity.

But by the looks of it, the NCC seems poised to make this yet another sleepy (but dense) neighbourhood. At the very least if the Sens get more land I have no doubt they'll take care of some of that themselves.

[LRTeverywhere]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

This has been a brewing worry of mine as this project unfolds. The key to making this a vibrant district is ground level commercial/retail space. The arena alone won't make the area lively - fans and concertgoers need bars and restaurants to frequent pre and post event. I thought that was the entire point of moving to a central location - to give people options in the immediate vicinity.

But by the looks of it, the NCC seems poised to make this yet another sleepy (but dense) neighbourhood. At the very least if the Sens get more land I have no doubt they'll take care of some of that themselves.

There are plans for lots of retail but facing more so towards the aquaduct and Albert / arena districts. I believe their logic for not permitting it on Wellington is its supposed to be more so a ceromonial street with all the meuseums and monuments. That can certainingly be debated.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by LRTeverywhere

There are plans for lots of retail but facing more so towards the aquaduct and Albert / arena districts. I believe their logic for not permitting it on Wellington is its supposed to be more so a ceromonial street with all the meuseums and monuments. That can certainingly be debated.

Yes, it's supposed to be a boring, sterile, wind-swept, inhumane "ceremonial street". It's awful thinking.

[J.OT13]

I'd also prefer having a couple restaurants and a dépaneur at the Flats District. The entire area from the Flats District to the Chaudière Bridge will remain dead because of Bluesfest Park, the Museum and the Monuments Graveyard, so Zibi and LeBreton won't be tied together quite as well as we'd hoped.

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Yes, it's supposed to be a boring, sterile, wind-swept, inhumane "ceremonial street". It's awful thinking.

I don't think its wrong thinking for this particular block of Wellington, from Chaudiere to Bayview. Its certainly the beginning of the parkway, which should be a controlled access boulevard for most of its length, as it is now.

Neighbourhood entry should be from the war museum intersection, and maybe one more intersection off of Booth? (not sure about Booth, and I'm also not sure about the War museum access, I think it was a wrong design to have that intersection on Wellington, but I digress.). But certainly once you're in the new Lebreton Condos, there's nothing stopping you from developing a nice area of shops and cafes at grade, rather than condo entrance lobbies and parking garage doors. Turning these buildings away from Wellington is the proper move, I think, with a green strip between the buildings and wellington. Certainly some patios, or even townhouse back yards built into the tower (like at Lansdowne) might be able to pop up there, but its a traffic sewer by design.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Neighbourhood entry should be from the war museum intersection, and maybe one more intersection off of Booth? (not sure about Booth, and I'm also not sure about the War museum access, I think it was a wrong design to have that intersection on Wellington, but I digress.). But certainly once you're in the new Lebreton Condos, there's nothing stopping you from developing a nice area of shops and cafes at grade, rather than condo entrance lobbies and parking garage doors. Turning these buildings away from Wellington is the proper move, I think, with a green strip between the buildings and wellington. Certainly some patios, or even townhouse back yards built into the tower (like at Lansdowne) might be able to pop up there, but its a traffic sewer by design.

But why should Wellington be a traffic sewer by design? I thought that we were moving away from a parkway and towards an urban boulevard. What better way to tie Lebreton into the War Museum park and Zibi than with commercial facing Wellington? Lots of room for bike lanes and patios facing the festival site.

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by phil235

But why should Wellington be a traffic sewer by design? I thought that we were moving away from a parkway and towards an urban boulevard. What better way to tie Lebreton into the War Museum park and Zibi than with commercial facing Wellington? Lots of room for bike lanes and patios facing the festival site.

Sure, that's right I think. However its a controlled access boulevard, right, so there shouldn't be any extra driveways or entry points from the neighbourhood to Wellington.

Imagine a patio facing bluesfest, that would be great, actually.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Sure, that's right I think. However its a controlled access boulevard, right, so there shouldn't be any extra driveways or entry points from the neighbourhood to Wellington.

Imagine a patio facing bluesfest, that would be great, actually.

For sure, we shouldn't have any driveways/parking garage entrances facing Wellington, but retail/restaurants shouldn't be an issue.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Sure, that's right I think. However its a controlled access boulevard, right, so there shouldn't be any extra driveways or entry points from the neighbourhood to Wellington.

Imagine a patio facing bluesfest, that would be great, actually.

Yeah, I could see a great opportunity for restaurants there, to capitalize on Bluesfest and link in to the cycling network.

The plan is a little high level, but there looks to be 3 streets running off Wellington, and potentially a crossing of Wellington at the far west end of the boulevard. There is also a reference to parking being located at the edge of the district to discourage cars driving to the interior of the site. Not sure if that means Wellington specifically.

You don't want Wellington to be a barrier, so it makes sense to create a streetscape that slows traffic to urban speeds through there. It's already a bit of a freeway going up the hill to downtown, which isn't ideal in that location.

[J.OT13]

Student concepts for the Parks District.

• Video Link

[rocketphish]

Senators president Cyril Leeder 'optimistic' club will make LeBreton Flats deal with NCC

Bruce Garrioch, Ottawa Citizen
Published Jun 13, 2024 • Last updated 4 hours ago • 4 minute read

The clock is ticking on a downtown arena at LeBreton Flats.

Speaking at the Ottawa Senators first annual spring summit with more than 1,500 season-ticket holders Wednesday night, club president Cyril Leeder told the crowd at the Canadian Tire Centre that the clock is now ticking to get a deal in place with the National Capital Commission.

Senators owner Michael Andlauer and his partners have been given an extension on a memorandum of understanding (MOU) until Sept. 20 by NCC chief executive officer Tobi Nussbaum to get a lease agreement in place.

Andlauer is bullish on being downtown because he’d also like to be closer to Gatineau. Leeder told the fans Wednesday night the Senators will play a Black-and-White intra-squad game in Gatineau during training camp.

“It’s a complicated and very complex project that’s going to take some time,” Leeder said. “I’d say not to expect a weekly or even monthly update because it’s going to be a bit of lumpy process.

“We do have an MOU with the NCC on a small parcel of land at LeBreton Flats. Sept. 20 is an important date because that’s the date when we need to get a certificate of agreement with the NCC or that deal expires. We’re working diligently and hard and trying to do everything we can to try to to get to that agreement.

“Again, I can’t tell you when we’ll be moving downtown, I can just tell you that we’re working very hard.”

Speaking to Postmedia afterwards, Leeder noted he’s “optimistic” that the organization will put pen to paper with the NCC.

“We’ve got the MOU and we’re working hard to make that happen. We’ve got until September to get a definitive agreement so we’ve got to get that done soon if we’re going to move that forward,” Leeder said.

“Yes, I’m an optimistic person, I’m not going to get into the details of the discussions, but I’m feeling there’s a willingness to make an agreement there. We’re trying.”

Can the deadline be extended?

“It could, but you need two sides to do that,” Leeder said. “But we’ve all agreed we’re going to try to get this done before September and we’re focused on that (timeline).”

Ottawa mayor Mark Sutcliffe publicly has offered up alternatives, which include 13.5 acres at Bayview Yards. Plus, city staff also have suggested that there may be sites available downtown where federal government buildings currently sit.

Leeder noted the club won’t move anytime in the next two or three years, which is why the Senators are making investments in the current building.

The organization has upgraded the lighting, is replacing the elevators in the off-season and upgrading the hockey facilities. The players will arrive back to a new “state-of-the-art” gym and the coaches will have new offices.

“The downtown arena, that’s going to take some time, that’s not going to happen overnight,” Leeder said. “There’s a group that would like us to be down in two or three years dropping the puck, it won’t happen that fast. This is a big project and we’re working hard at it.

“I can tell you I’ve spent a lot of my own personal time working on the arena. Erin Crowe, our CEO and CFO, heads up the project from our end. Myself and Chris Phillips are working closely with her to help move this thing along.”

While representatives of the two sides continue bi-weekly meetings to try to get a lease agreement in place, league sources told Postmedia in April there are issues to be settled in this negotiation, not the least of which is the size of the parcel of land.

The club also has concerns about parking around the arena because it’s difficult to rely on Ottawa’s troubled Light Rail Transit system for fans to get in and out of the arena. The Senators want people to be able to arrive and leave the rink in a timely fashion.

The NCC has set aside a seven-acre piece of land on Albert Street between Preston Street and City Centre, just west of Ottawa’s new central library, which is now under construction. The Senators won preferred bidder status to build a new rink in June 2022.

Nussbaum has noted publicly there is flexibility for more space and there has been some talk amongst developers in town that could as much as five or six more acres, which would allow the club to build an arena district.

He also noted after a meeting with the NCC’s board of directors in April that there is a Plan B in place if the Senators don’t make a deal at LeBreton.

“There’s no question that there will be a point at which we will either have a lease or not. I can’t say with 100% certainty when that is. Is it in September? I certainly hope so,” Nussbaum said. “There’s no ultimatum at this stage, just both sides working in good faith to get this done by the September deadline.”

There may not be an ultimatum, but it sure feels like we’re at the point where the Senators either make a deal with the NCC or the door on building a rink at LeBreton Flats will be closed completely.

bgarrioch@postmedia.com

https://ottawacitizen.com/ottawa-sen...ton-flats-deal

[J.OT13]

The title says "optimistic", but the content does not. After all this time, I'm surprised the NCC hasn't made their final offer in terms of sizing up the parcel of land. I'd love to know what was offered. Can't imagine the Sens expect to get everything that remains. I think everything between Albert and Line 1/3 would be reasonable.

[DTcrawler]

Reading the article optimistically (and with a grain of salt considering who it's authored by) I'll say we're just in the midst of a firm but fair negotiation by two parties, neither of whom want to leave too much on the table. The NCC is a steward of public lands and public funds, and the Sens are a money-making entity who also want to maximize fan-experience. The biggest positive is that neither side has yet accused the other of acting in bad faith or stymying dialogue in any way. I'd say the only "distraction" has been Sutcliffe with his antics but even then you could argue he's just doing his due diligence as a representative of the City (not the NCC nor the Sens).

In a perfect world, my wish list would be for:

- the NCC to offer up more land and give the Sens the green light to build limited on-site parking (for STHs, players, staff, media, VIPs, etc) and any other ventures they see fit to be profitable (hotel, bars, etc.)

- the Sens ask for little to no public money (or negotiate a financing model to make it appear that way) to minimize public backlash and maximize goodwill towards the overall project.

- the City takes a collaborative stance with both parties and helps develop a comprehensive transportation strategy to ensure no stone is left unturned as far as making sure the new arena's location is a success from a logistical perspective. This involves making sure everyone from the city's traffic dept, OC Transpo, and OPS are aligned strategy-wise.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

Reading the article optimistically (and with a grain of salt considering who it's authored by) I'll say we're just in the midst of a firm but fair negotiation by two parties, neither of whom want to leave too much on the table. The NCC is a steward of public lands and public funds, and the Sens are a money-making entity who also want to maximize fan-experience. The biggest positive is that neither side has yet accused the other of acting in bad faith or stymying dialogue in any way. I'd say the only "distraction" has been Sutcliffe with his antics but even then you could argue he's just doing his due diligence as a representative of the City (not the NCC nor the Sens).

In a perfect world, my wish list would be for:

- the NCC to offer up more land and give the Sens the green light to build limited on-site parking (for STHs, players, staff, media, VIPs, etc) and any other ventures they see fit to be profitable (hotel, bars, etc.)

- the Sens ask for little to no public money (or negotiate a financing model to make it appear that way) to minimize public backlash and maximize goodwill towards the overall project.

- the City takes a collaborative stance with both parties and helps develop a comprehensive transportation strategy to ensure no stone is left unturned as far as making sure the new arena's location is a success from a logistical perspective. This involves making sure everyone from the city's traffic dept, OC Transpo, and OPS are aligned strategy-wise.

Seems fair. As I mentioned, giving them the land between Albert and Line 1/3 might be the best case scenario. They could easily build a one or two level parking garage underneath. If Lansdowne has 1k spots under 400k square feet, one level, Sens could fit roughly 3k spots on two levels in the proposed area. They could add a level or two if they want spots for the hotel, residential and office components. Maybe the City moves the Laurier Avenue garage (BMO) to Bayview, adding a few hundred spots.

In terms of public funding, I'd be ok with loans or loan guarantees. Add s ticket surcharge to pay back the City over time, maybe give them 10% of the naming rights. Make it easy on them to rezone. Maybe partner with the Sens for a tower and new community rink/Sensplex on the Tom Brown site.

[zzptichka]

Would be nice to include a clause that if the team moves (or construction does not start in 5 years they lose it).