The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by darkharbour

Maybe we'll finally get another apartment building nearby to help justify the plural in "Aquarius Towers"

And maybe something tall enough to actually see the water.

Though, Aquarius Tower will technically have a slight view of the Bay of Fundy... from the roof.




even 12 storeys would have pretty decent views of the Bay for quite a few of the units. Which could justify the use of the name "Aquarius", lol.

[TitleRequired]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

And maybe something tall enough to actually see the water.

Though, Aquarius Tower will technically have a slight view of the Bay of Fundy... from the roof.

even 12 storeys would have pretty decent views of the Bay for quite a few of the units. Which could justify the use of the name "Aquarius", lol.

On top of the ridge off of Foster Thurston you'd probably get awesome views all the way to Digby. And its already zoned for highrise according to the zonesj map. A section 39 conditional zoning.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by TitleRequired

On top of the ridge off of Foster Thurston you'd probably get awesome views all the way to Digby. And its already zoned for highrise according to the zonesj map. A section 39 conditional zoning.

Would be quite the view up there, especially of the river system and valley.

Hard to beat Fort Dufferin for ocean views, though, which is also already zoned for high-rise residential.

Attracting the investment to build at either location is a worthwhile endeavour for both the city and our regional development agency. Really too bad the Belyea site doesn’t have the best zoning at the moment, but that could always be changed for the right project.

[TitleRequired]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Would be quite the view up there, especially of the river system and valley.

Hard to beat Fort Dufferin for ocean views, though, which is also already zoned for high-rise residential.

Attracting the investment to build at either location is a worthwhile endeavour for both the city and our regional development agency. Really too bad the Belyea site doesn’t have the best zoning at the moment, but that could always be changed for the right project.

Was this another speculative zoning variance approval to sell the property?

They should really consider putting in a sunset clause on those conditional zoning amendments if they don't get built.

[DevelopmentAndy]

Originally Posted by TitleRequired

Thank you for your kind post. While we can disagree on the similarities and differences between the two cities, I was wondering if you had read the article describing possible solutions to our elderly housing stock. Described as decrepit by some.

What’s your proposal brah?

Not trying to be nasty. To start maybe stop celebrating people coming from away with sacks of cash from selling their homes at inflated prices and driving up the market in the Maritimes. This is not good or healthy for the local economy or for the rental stock. When looking at "rust belt" cities people from the east coast often make comparisons to the rust belt cities of the US. Most of these were much larger and their declines have resulted in dangerous and ugly urban deserts. There is nothing in the Maritimes like that, thankfully. Go to Akron, Detroit, Cleveland, etc. It is somewhat like Dresden in 1945 except you are far more likely to be murdered.

[dhottawa729]

I wish YSJ could get a financial bail-out. It used to be a nice little airport, but it’s grown too much within its existing footprint such that the departure lounge has squeezed out any openness pre-security. Worse, there is no natural light and any windows are covered in decals so you can’t wave goodbye or see any planes on the tarmac. Same for arrivals- there’s no screen and no window to tell if a plane has arrived. The corridors within the airport are surprising narrow for a public building. The entrance is extremely non-descript and not easy to even tell where it is. It’s the most crammed/dark/unattractive/claustrophobia-inducing public building I’ve been in recently, but it used to be quite nice when they last did a full modernization in the 90’s. Surely, a simple steel truss structure similar to a municipal hockey arena with full glazing could be erected as an eastern expansion to the terminal, or a second storey built so that the departure lounge could be upstairs and the arrivals/security/customs/baggage could be on the ground floor. YSJ needs to attract new routes and airlines the differ from Fredericton and Moncton to not duplicate but compliment and share passenger bases. Offer flights to other cities like Quebec City and Hamilton to connect Canada in different ways. Work together and don’t compete in such a small market. Get more international flights to justify more CBSA staff to make customs arrivals MUCH faster. Convince airlines to re-introduce some ‘milk run’ routes to expand service to these smaller airports (e.g., St John’s, Saint John, Quebec, London Ontario). It’s chicken and egg. YSJ needs better facilities to attract airlines but they need passenger volumes for revenue. As the worst airport in Canada (see article below), I think it’s time that government and investors band together to make this a proper airport. YSJ is losing money to other nearby airports while boosting the competition’s volumes while nobody knows how much inconvenience people in and out of SJ have had to experience driving from as far away as Halifax because that’s the only reasonably priced direct flight to the maritimes! For a city of this size, it’s truly astonishing.

https://ckpgtoday.ca/2024/04/18/prince-george-airport-ranks-as-one-of-the-worst-in-canada/

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by dhottawa729

I wish YSJ could get a financial bail-out. It used to be a nice little airport, but it’s grown too much within its existing footprint such that the departure lounge has squeezed out any openness pre-security. Worse, there is no natural light and any windows are covered in decals so you can’t wave goodbye or see any planes on the tarmac. Same for arrivals- there’s no screen and no window to tell if a plane has arrived. The corridors within the airport are surprising narrow for a public building. The entrance is extremely non-descript and not easy to even tell where it is. It’s the most crammed/dark/unattractive/claustrophobia-inducing public building I’ve been in recently, but it used to be quite nice when they last did a full modernization in the 90’s. Surely, a simple steel truss structure similar to a municipal hockey arena with full glazing could be erected as an eastern expansion to the terminal, or a second storey built so that the departure lounge could be upstairs and the arrivals/security/customs/baggage could be on the ground floor. YSJ needs to attract new routes and airlines the differ from Fredericton and Moncton to not duplicate but compliment and share passenger bases. Offer flights to other cities like Quebec City and Hamilton to connect Canada in different ways. Work together and don’t compete in such a small market. Get more international flights to justify more CBSA staff to make customs arrivals MUCH faster. Convince airlines to re-introduce some ‘milk run’ routes to expand service to these smaller airports (e.g., St John’s, Saint John, Quebec, London Ontario). It’s chicken and egg. YSJ needs better facilities to attract airlines but they need passenger volumes for revenue. As the worst airport in Canada (see article below), I think it’s time that government and investors band together to make this a proper airport. YSJ is losing money to other nearby airports while boosting the competition’s volumes while nobody knows how much inconvenience people in and out of SJ have had to experience driving from as far away as Halifax because that’s the only reasonably priced direct flight to the maritimes! For a city of this size, it’s truly astonishing.

https://ckpgtoday.ca/2024/04/18/prince-george-airport-ranks-as-one-of-the-worst-in-canada/

It’s a pretty crap airport, but I think it makes way more sense to invest in a new airport midway between Saint John and Fredericton, than investing tens of millions in any sort of major expansion at YSJ. The proposal to expand YSJ and add hotels and all that stuff looks absurd.

Investing in a new airport for both Fredericton and Saint John would actually be justified for the hundreds of millions or billion it would cost, since our combined metro populations are on track to be well over 500k people in the foreseeable future, which is like Halifax numbers.

YSJ could still serve a useful purpose as a cargo focussed airport, along with some room for general aviation or niche flights from smaller private operators like Pascan.

Investing potentially hundreds of millions of dollars into YSJ just doesn’t make sense to anyone but the airport’s executives.

[dhottawa729]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

It’s a pretty crap airport, but I think it makes way more sense to invest in a new airport midway between Saint John and Fredericton, than investing tens of millions in any sort of major expansion at YSJ. The proposal to expand YSJ and add hotels and all that stuff looks absurd.

Investing in a new airport for both Fredericton and Saint John would actually be justified for the hundreds of millions or billion it would cost, since our combined metro populations are on track to be well over 500k people in the foreseeable future, which is like Halifax numbers.

YSJ could still serve a useful purpose as a cargo focussed airport, along with some room for general aviation or niche flights from smaller private operators like Pascan.

Investing potentially hundreds of millions of dollars into YSJ just doesn’t make sense to anyone but the airport’s executives.

Undeniably, Moncton is most conveniently located for longer-haul flights as they have the biggest capture area and so I wouldn't mind a 1.5 hour drive to access better routes. I just want a local airport in Saint John that is close to home (max 20-30 min drive) and doesn't look and feel like a small-town 90's bus terminal. I just want something similar or better than Fredericton that looks and feels like an airport and I don't think that's too much to ask. The airport doesn't need a hotel as it's only 20 minutes from the city and YSJ doesn't get any 5am or 11pm flights where that 20 minutes of saved travel time matters. I just want to see more interior open space, a nice restaurant/lounge and for a better arrival/departure experience. At most, the luxury of a jetway to get to larger planes from a potential second floor international departure lounge would be amazing. YSJ should get some automatic bailout funding for being #25/25 on the list but only #17 in terms of population of those 25 cities. Even Charlottetown (CMA pop. 82,000) has a more airporty-looking airport with more flights and routes.

[Arrdeeharharharbour]

It's about 80 km from Hamilton to Pearson airport and about an hours drive on a good day. Hamilton has a population in the ballpark of all of NB and, I believe, has very little service either nationally or internationally from its airport. I suspect the ship has sailed (airplane has flown?) on NB having a second major airport. Having said this, I think Envision.... is on the right track in thinking of amalgamation of airports. It's just that Moncton needs to be involved in the amalgamation of a single airport that is more central to all NB cities.

I think also that Envision... is on the right track in Saint John re-branding somehow. Personally I'd like to see the maritime provinces get together and create a map from our perspective on our planet and in our country rather than the map that we usually see that suggests to the average person that we are far north of the Canada/US border.

I gotta tell a story... in 1983 I went on a date with a girl from Moncton. We were both living in Edmonton at the time. A few minutes into our dinner she suddenly blurts out "if Nova Scotia is so great then why does New Brunswick have three cities and Nova Scotia has only one!" Completly out of left field and took me totally by surprise. This was my initiation into how competitive NB'ers are in terms of their cities. I'm not suggesting you stop on my account 'cause it's very entertaining. However, it may explain, in part, why some past leaders have made some poor decisions on behalf of NB'ers.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by DevelopmentAndy

Not trying to be nasty. To start maybe stop celebrating people coming from away with sacks of cash from selling their homes at inflated prices and driving up the market in the Maritimes. This is not good or healthy for the local economy or for the rental stock. When looking at "rust belt" cities people from the east coast often make comparisons to the rust belt cities of the US. Most of these were much larger and their declines have resulted in dangerous and ugly urban deserts. There is nothing in the Maritimes like that, thankfully. Go to Akron, Detroit, Cleveland, etc. It is somewhat like Dresden in 1945 except you are far more likely to be murdered.

That's quite the leap of logic; comparing US rust belt cities to Dresden. A little thick on the hyperbole. There are certainly smaller cities in the US and Canada which have declined similar to Saint John. One example would be Brantford, ON; Wayne Gretzky's hometown. Once a thriving manufacturing city, Brantford hit bottom in the 1980's/1990's with the closure of major manufacturers such as Massey Ferguson, Harding Carpets, etc. Branford become one of the most economically depressed areas in Canada and its downtown became a shell of boarded up and empty buildings.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by dhottawa729

I wish YSJ could get a financial bail-out. It used to be a nice little airport, but it’s grown too much within its existing footprint such that the departure lounge has squeezed out any openness pre-security. Worse, there is no natural light and any windows are covered in decals so you can’t wave goodbye or see any planes on the tarmac. Same for arrivals- there’s no screen and no window to tell if a plane has arrived. The corridors within the airport are surprising narrow for a public building. The entrance is extremely non-descript and not easy to even tell where it is. It’s the most crammed/dark/unattractive/claustrophobia-inducing public building I’ve been in recently, but it used to be quite nice when they last did a full modernization in the 90’s. Surely, a simple steel truss structure similar to a municipal hockey arena with full glazing could be erected as an eastern expansion to the terminal, or a second storey built so that the departure lounge could be upstairs and the arrivals/security/customs/baggage could be on the ground floor. YSJ needs to attract new routes and airlines the differ from Fredericton and Moncton to not duplicate but compliment and share passenger bases. Offer flights to other cities like Quebec City and Hamilton to connect Canada in different ways. Work together and don’t compete in such a small market. Get more international flights to justify more CBSA staff to make customs arrivals MUCH faster. Convince airlines to re-introduce some ‘milk run’ routes to expand service to these smaller airports (e.g., St John’s, Saint John, Quebec, London Ontario). It’s chicken and egg. YSJ needs better facilities to attract airlines but they need passenger volumes for revenue. As the worst airport in Canada (see article below), I think it’s time that government and investors band together to make this a proper airport. YSJ is losing money to other nearby airports while boosting the competition’s volumes while nobody knows how much inconvenience people in and out of SJ have had to experience driving from as far away as Halifax because that’s the only reasonably priced direct flight to the maritimes! For a city of this size, it’s truly astonishing.

https://ckpgtoday.ca/2024/04/18/prince-george-airport-ranks-as-one-of-the-worst-in-canada/

Which airline(s) would serve YSJ-YHM? And what international flights would serve YSJ? Except for some northern routes, the days of "milk-run" routes are long gone. It's point-to-point service.

[sailor734]

I think the chances of Saint John getting a flight to a US east coast city are somewhere between slim and none. Fredericton couldn't make it work and Moncton hasn't seen the service return post pandemic.

The best we can hope for realistically is a second carrier (WestJet or Porter are the only candidates that would give access to onward connections) to provide service to Montreal, Toronto and/or Ottawa. The increased number of flights would improve convenience and having more than one carrier would force AC to compete on pricing.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I think the chances of Saint John getting a flight to a US east coast city are somewhere between slim and none. Fredericton couldn't make it work and Moncton hasn't seen the service return post pandemic.

The best we can hope for realistically is a second carrier (WestJet or Porter are the only candidates that would give access to onward connections) to provide service to Montreal, Toronto and/or Ottawa. The increased number of flights would improve convenience and having more than one carrier would force AC to compete on pricing.

Yep, that's about as good as it will get for YSJ anytime soon.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by sailor734

I think the chances of Saint John getting a flight to a US east coast city are somewhere between slim and none. Fredericton couldn't make it work and Moncton hasn't seen the service return post pandemic.

The best we can hope for realistically is a second carrier (WestJet or Porter are the only candidates that would give access to onward connections) to provide service to Montreal, Toronto and/or Ottawa. The increased number of flights would improve convenience and having more than one carrier would force AC to compete on pricing.

We already have one to Orlando, on your least favourite airline. I know Flair is just a ULCC and it’s a one day a week, seasonal flight, but it’s better than nothing.

It wouldn’t be out of the realm of possibilities that Flair or another airline could look at adding another seasonal, non daily flight to New York, Boston, or elsewhere during the summer. No one is expecting a return of daily flights to Boston or anything like that at the current airport, but a seasonal flight to Boston, New York, or D.C. a few days a week during the summer at a low, low cost like the Orlando flight? Sign me up.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by dhottawa729

Undeniably, Moncton is most conveniently located for longer-haul flights as they have the biggest capture area and so I wouldn't mind a 1.5 hour drive to access better routes. I just want a local airport in Saint John that is close to home (max 20-30 min drive) and doesn't look and feel like a small-town 90's bus terminal. I just want something similar or better than Fredericton that looks and feels like an airport and I don't think that's too much to ask. The airport doesn't need a hotel as it's only 20 minutes from the city and YSJ doesn't get any 5am or 11pm flights where that 20 minutes of saved travel time matters. I just want to see more interior open space, a nice restaurant/lounge and for a better arrival/departure experience. At most, the luxury of a jetway to get to larger planes from a potential second floor international departure lounge would be amazing. YSJ should get some automatic bailout funding for being #25/25 on the list but only #17 in terms of population of those 25 cities. Even Charlottetown (CMA pop. 82,000) has a more airporty-looking airport with more flights and routes.

An airport located midway between Saint John and Fredericton would be a 30 minute drive from Saint John, and Fredericton.

I’d say it being last on the list speaks volumes… it’s not just the facilities and infrastructure, it’s the location including the inclement weather. The government should take a look at Pugley’s well thought out proposal and actually study the idea of a combined Fredericton-Saint John airport,l.

Their last study that suggested sticking with the current three airport model for Saint John, Fredericton, and Moncton was full of holes, full of redactions, and more about justifying the current model of 3 main airports than genuinely studying the benefits of a combined airport. The report rightly shot down the idea of a combined airport for all three cities, as a 60+ minute to the airport for all three cities would be ridiculous. But it seems like that report didn’t even bother studying a combined Fredericton-Saint John airport, which remains a highly logical solution.

Of course the CEO’s of YSJ and YFC don’t like the idea of either airport shutting down in favour of a new one, but it’s not like they wouldn’t get offered a golden parachute or new high ranking position at the new airport anyways.

The combined Saint John and Fredericton metro areas far outweigh Metro Moncton, and will continue to into the foreseeable future. The idea of a combined Freddy/SJ airport just makes way too much sense to not at least study. People in KV might not exactly love the idea, but we’ve had enough of the tail wagging the dog here in the Saint John Region for decades now as it is. Even for the KV crowd, a combined airport with more flights, affordable prices, and less inclement weather would be more than worth the extra 30 minutes it would take for them to get to the new airport versus their current quick jaunt to YSJ.

I get that business travellers don’t really care about the price of flights out of YSJ, and that many of them live in KV and really like the short drive. But again, we can’t let the tail wag the dog. Most people flying in and out of Saint John are not business travellers, and with more flights and more routes at a new, combined airport, even more of the travellers would be tourists coming to New Brunswick.

For all that it would cost to turn YSJ into “real” international airport, it makes way more sense to just build a new one midway between Fredericton and Saint John and do it proper from scratch. The long term benefits far outweigh the short term costs.

As for YSJ’s current building and infrastructure, it could be easily converted to a cargo focussed airport with room for general aviation and charter flights.

Lastly, it would just be great to remove the Saint John/St. John’s confusion regarding our current airport. Anyone in Saint John that’s ever had someone fly into town to visit can attest that we must stress and make abundantly clear that they must make sure they’re flying into Saint John’s airport and not St. John’s airport. A combined Fredericton-Saint John airport nips that problem in the bud, once and for all.

[DevelopmentAndy]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

That's quite the leap of logic; comparing US rust belt cities to Dresden. A little thick on the hyperbole. There are certainly smaller cities in the US and Canada which have declined similar to Saint John. One example would be Brantford, ON; Wayne Gretzky's hometown. Once a thriving manufacturing city, Brantford hit bottom in the 1980's/1990's with the closure of major manufacturers such as Massey Ferguson, Harding Carpets, etc. Branford become one of the most economically depressed areas in Canada and its downtown became a shell of boarded up and empty buildings.

"somewhat like" is not hyperbole. Having been to all of the cities I list, there are literally hundreds of acres of streets with abandoned and decaying buildings and whole neighbourhoods looking like they were bombed. Very large industrial structures that have been abandoned and are slowing falling down. There is nothing like that on the east coast. That may be true about Brantford at one time but it is doing OK now. The equivalent would be Irving closing down but Saint John does not have something like the boom in the GTHA sprawling towards it.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by DevelopmentAndy

"somewhat like" is not hyperbole. Having been to all of the cities I list, there are literally hundreds of acres of streets with abandoned and decaying buildings and whole neighbourhoods looking like they were bombed. Very large industrial structures that have been abandoned and are slowing falling down. There is nothing like that on the east coast. That may be true about Brantford at one time but it is doing OK now. The equivalent would be Irving closing down but Saint John does not have something like the boom in the GTHA sprawling towards it.

The mothballed dry dock is currently about the only thing we have close to that, and it’s not really even decayed. It could, at least in theory, be refurbished and brought back into operation one day. Or just be the perfect place to lay up one of the Halifax class frigates, that were built there, as a museum ship. As The Sailor mentioned previously, the cost of keeping old boats afloat is very expensive. Using the dry dock takes the whole “floating part” out of the equation.

The former general hospital, sugar refinery, and T.S. Simms paint brush factory would be pretty close to fitting the description above if they were still around.

It’s an absolute shame the old general couldn’t have been repurposed as apartments, and same for T.S. Simms. Heck, even the Sugar Refinery could have been converted into something incredible like a science centre, an art gallery, or some sort of exhibition space for the NB Museum. Hopefully the site is remediated one day and the structural issues dealt with so we can see a transformational waterfront development go up there.

AIM, the derelict sugar refinery site, and Lower Cove Terminal don’t exactly give people on the cruise ships the best impression of Saint John upon entering the harbour.

[DevelopmentAndy]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

The mothballed dry dock is currently about the only thing we have close to that, and it’s not really even decayed. It could, at least in theory, be refurbished and brought back into operation one day. Or just be the perfect place to lay up one of the Halifax class frigates, that were built there, as a museum ship. As The Sailor mentioned previously, the cost of keeping old boats afloat is very expensive. Using the dry dock takes the whole “floating part” out of the equation.

The former general hospital, sugar refinery, and T.S. Simms paint brush factory would be pretty close to fitting the description above if they were still around.

It’s an absolute shame the old general couldn’t have been repurposed as apartments, and same for T.S. Simms. Heck, even the Sugar Refinery could have been converted into something incredible like a science centre, an art gallery, or some sort of exhibition space for the NB Museum. Hopefully the site is remediated one day and the structural issues dealt with so we can see a transformational waterfront development go up there.

AIM, the derelict sugar refinery site, and Lower Cove Terminal don’t exactly give people on the cruise ships the best impression of Saint John upon entering the harbour.

It's a working port and those sites mostly are needed for future expansion of the port. I assume that the cruise ships come for the "old city" and some new development is not going to be something better than a vacant lot. It is unfortunate that some of the old structures could not be saved. On my last time to the east coast I could not believe how many structures in Saint John had come down, that building that was for sale near the cruise ship terminals, Gothic Arches, Simms among others. It looks tidier than decay but that old industrial and commercial city feel is what made it attractive. It seems to be losing it bit by bit.

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