The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by TitleRequired

Well, it is when there isn't a flow of people from apartments to houses. Nor is there construction on many of the vacant lots in the city. Many going for 20-40,000$; fully serviced.

There are quite a few properties in SJ going for less than what they'd rent for.

For example:
https://www.realtor.ca/real-estate/26938678/7-sandpiper-road-saint-john

The mortgage on this would be around 700$/month. Don't know about the trailer park fees, but presents an option to many, its on a bus route near many amenities. Not my cup of tea, but compared to paying the going rate for a three bedroom apartment, its an option.

It may also be difficult to get a mortgage for a property like that though.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by OliverD

It may also be difficult to get a mortgage for a property like that though.

Don’t think you can get a mortgage at all on a mini home if it’s in a park on a rented pad. Don’t you have to own the land?

[TitleRequired]

Originally Posted by sailor734

Don’t think you can get a mortgage at all on a mini home if it’s in a park on a rented pad. Don’t you have to own the land?

A quick google suggests that it is possible. Otherwise it would be extremely difficult to populate said trailer parks.

In NB also has the ability to place a lien on the trailer. So the lender is covered.

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by TitleRequired

A quick google suggests that it is possible. Otherwise it would be extremely difficult to populate said trailer parks.

In NB also has the ability to place a lien on the trailer. So the lender is covered.

Interesting. I was always under the impression they were financed with chattel loans with a lien on the item (like recreational boats or RV's)

I see CMHC has something called CLIP (Chattel Loan Insurance Program ) for mini homes so it sounds like it's a basically a mortgage in all but name.

[DyAm00394]

It was posted over on Retail Talk & Share NB Facebook group that Westmorland Homes may be moving further down Rothesay Ave, to the former Fundy Line Motel property. This move will allow for the Retail Drive Re-alinement Project.

[TitleRequired]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

scuzzy apartments in decrepit old buildings.

To be honest, from what I can tell most are over 50 years old, if not older.

I'm reminded of an article describing the challenges of maintaining these older structures, from a planner in Akron Ohio. Akron shares many of the same challenges that Saint John does, being a rustbelt industrial city.

https://web.archive.org/web/201903111115...ctually-costs-to-maintain-an-older-house

Excerpt:
People have proposed many well-intended, but unrealistic, solutions to the problem of low property values in urban neighborhoods with older houses that are falling apart. -- from the linked article: "What It Actually Costs to Maintain an Older House
By Jason Segedy.

We have the same rot in our apartment stock and in specific neighborhoods in the city.

From the article again:
When a neighborhood gets to be around 50 years old, it reaches a crossroads. The patina of newness has completely worn off. The houses are now well into their second life-cycle of exterior maintenance, and many are in need of significant and costly interior updates. Will existing homeowners be willing to shell out the money for needed upgrades, or will they sell cheap, and move on to greener pastures? The answer to that question depends a lot on anticipated resale value, and can determine the fate of the neighborhood. -- emphasis mine...

We know what happened to the jellybean buildings, the building besides the irving office building. The numerous vacant lots within the city core.

The solution in Akron Ohio was a 15 year tax abatement on new construction and renovated housing to renew its housing stock.

"The City of Akron's residential property tax abatement program exempts 100% of the added property value on any new home construction or home renovation (valued at approximately $5,000 or more), for a period of 15 years." -https://www.akronohio.gov/departments/planning_urban_development/residential_tax_abatement.php

Thoughts?

[sailor734]

Originally Posted by TitleRequired

To be honest, from what I can tell most are over 50 years old, if not older.

I'm reminded of an article describing the challenges of maintaining these older structures, from a planner in Akron Ohio. Akron shares many of the same challenges that Saint John does, being a rustbelt industrial city.

https://web.archive.org/web/201903111115...ctually-costs-to-maintain-an-older-house

Excerpt:
People have proposed many well-intended, but unrealistic, solutions to the problem of low property values in urban neighborhoods with older houses that are falling apart. -- from the linked article: "What It Actually Costs to Maintain an Older House
By Jason Segedy.

We have the same rot in our apartment stock and in specific neighborhoods in the city.

From the article again:
When a neighborhood gets to be around 50 years old, it reaches a crossroads. The patina of newness has completely worn off. The houses are now well into their second life-cycle of exterior maintenance, and many are in need of significant and costly interior updates. Will existing homeowners be willing to shell out the money for needed upgrades, or will they sell cheap, and move on to greener pastures? The answer to that question depends a lot on anticipated resale value, and can determine the fate of the neighborhood. -- emphasis mine...

We know what happened to the jellybean buildings, the building besides the irving office building. The numerous vacant lots within the city core.

The solution in Akron Ohio was a 15 year tax abatement on new construction and renovated housing to renew its housing stock.

"The City of Akron's residential property tax abatement program exempts 100% of the added property value on any new home construction or home renovation (valued at approximately $5,000 or more), for a period of 15 years." -https://www.akronohio.gov/departments/planning_urban_development/residential_tax_abatement.php

Thoughts?

I agree about the crossroads thing. I think a lot depends on the desirability of the location too. Look at all the 1960's ranch houses being bought for high 6 figures in K Park and then either gutted or torn down.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by TitleRequired

To be honest, from what I can tell most are over 50 years old, if not older.

I'm reminded of an article describing the challenges of maintaining these older structures, from a planner in Akron Ohio. Akron shares many of the same challenges that Saint John does, being a rustbelt industrial city.

https://web.archive.org/web/201903111115...ctually-costs-to-maintain-an-older-house

Excerpt:
People have proposed many well-intended, but unrealistic, solutions to the problem of low property values in urban neighborhoods with older houses that are falling apart. -- from the linked article: "What It Actually Costs to Maintain an Older House
By Jason Segedy.

We have the same rot in our apartment stock and in specific neighborhoods in the city.

From the article again:
When a neighborhood gets to be around 50 years old, it reaches a crossroads. The patina of newness has completely worn off. The houses are now well into their second life-cycle of exterior maintenance, and many are in need of significant and costly interior updates. Will existing homeowners be willing to shell out the money for needed upgrades, or will they sell cheap, and move on to greener pastures? The answer to that question depends a lot on anticipated resale value, and can determine the fate of the neighborhood. -- emphasis mine...

We know what happened to the jellybean buildings, the building besides the irving office building. The numerous vacant lots within the city core.

The solution in Akron Ohio was a 15 year tax abatement on new construction and renovated housing to renew its housing stock.

"The City of Akron's residential property tax abatement program exempts 100% of the added property value on any new home construction or home renovation (valued at approximately $5,000 or more), for a period of 15 years." -https://www.akronohio.gov/departments/planning_urban_development/residential_tax_abatement.php

Thoughts?

A tax abatement sounds like a good strategy to incentivize investment in Saint John. I say make the incentive more and more lucrative based on the height and scope of the building. we should want to see far more mid rises and high rises go up around the central peninsula, but other areas too.

Municipal tax reform and regional amalgamation would give us more leeway to really up the incentive, without either, it’s harder to justify, but still a worthwhile strategy.

We should be looking at every strategy and avenue possible to get more rental housing built, as immigration levels are likely to stay high regardless of who wins the next federal election. A strategy that dramatically increases the housing stock and lowers rents is perhaps our best bet to get more immigrants to actually stay in Saint John, but also retain more of our own. I can’t blame many young Saint Johners wanting to move on to bigger and better cities when the price of rent here in SJ has gotten pretty ridiculous for the size of our cities and thee amenities and lifestyle we offer. Focussing in increasing height and density in our core and core adjacent neighbourhoods seems like a good strategy.

I could even get behind a tax abatement strategy to incentive more luxury high rise condos being built here to really unlock those ocean views… even though many people seem averse to making it easier on luxury focussed property developers. They’d still help increase height and density, while increasing the housing stock, and greatly improve the image of the city and its skyline.

I’m not even sure a tax abatement strategy is even allowed under our current archaic municipal tax code, but if it is, I think it would be absolutely worthwhile.

[TitleRequired]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

A tax abatement sounds like a good strategy to incentivize investment in Saint John. I say make the incentive more and more lucrative based on the height and scope of the building. we should want to see far more mid rises and high rises go up around the central peninsula, but other areas too.

Municipal tax reform and regional amalgamation would give us more leeway to really up the incentive, without either, it’s harder to justify, but still a worthwhile strategy.

We should be looking at every strategy and avenue possible to get more rental housing built, as immigration levels are likely to stay high regardless of who wins the next federal election. A strategy that dramatically increases the housing stock and lowers rents is perhaps our best bet to get more immigrants to actually stay in Saint John, but also retain more of our own. I can’t blame many young Saint Johners wanting to move on to bigger and better cities when the price of rent here in SJ has gotten pretty ridiculous for the size of our cities and thee amenities and lifestyle we offer. Focussing in increasing height and density in our core and core adjacent neighbourhoods seems like a good strategy.

I could even get behind a tax abatement strategy to incentive more luxury high rise condos being built here to really unlock those ocean views… even though many people seem averse to making it easier on luxury focussed property developers. They’d still help increase height and density, while increasing the housing stock, and greatly improve the image of the city and its skyline.

I’m not even sure a tax abatement strategy is even allowed under our current archaic municipal tax code, but if it is, I think it would be absolutely worthwhile.

With your love of height, you may enjoy this webtool.

https://www.heywhatsthat.com/?view=UVH4XRU7

This is a simulation of the view possible from uptown for a 100ft height above ground. You could see Digby Gut from a 100ft building uptown. Scroll down to look at the map, and 'red' highlights.

From brentwood towers:

https://www.heywhatsthat.com/?view=EWD8L464

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by TitleRequired

With your love of height, you may enjoy this webtool.

https://www.heywhatsthat.com/?view=UVH4XRU7

This is a simulation of the view possible from uptown for a 100ft height above ground. You could see Digby Gut from a 100ft building uptown. Scroll down to look at the map, and 'red' highlights.

From brentwood towers:

https://www.heywhatsthat.com/?view=EWD8L464

This sounds really cool. I’ve always wondered how tall a building would need to be to have a view of the Bay of Fundy from Lancaster Mall, now I can find out. I’ve always thought high rises would be perfect there, along with many of our other “dying malls”, and shopping centres where there’s no housing at the moment.

10 storeys seems good enough to have ocean views or river views most places around Saint John since we’re pretty well surrounded by water here in Saint John, but nice to know this webtool could be used to check it out and confirm on a site by site basis. Much appreciated, thanks!

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Ten storeys (100ft above ground) would be more than enough to see the Bay of Fundy from Lancaster Mall. So a 20 storey apartment building there and around that area would have ocean views for more than half of the south facing units. Good to know.

Interesting that most of the tallest apartments in Saint John, like Brentwood Towers, aren’t built anywhere near the ocean… Fort Howe apartments being one of the few tall apartment buildings with ocean views that I can think of.

Seems like a missed opportunity that we should start prioritizing and strategizing to change into the future.

[DevelopmentAndy]

Originally Posted by TitleRequired

To be honest, from what I can tell most are over 50 years old, if not older.

I'm reminded of an article describing the challenges of maintaining these older structures, from a planner in Akron Ohio. Akron shares many of the same challenges that Saint John does, being a rustbelt industrial city.

https://web.archive.org/web/201903111115...ctually-costs-to-maintain-an-older-house

Excerpt:
People have proposed many well-intended, but unrealistic, solutions to the problem of low property values in urban neighborhoods with older houses that are falling apart. -- from the linked article: "What It Actually Costs to Maintain an Older House
By Jason Segedy.

We have the same rot in our apartment stock and in specific neighborhoods in the city.

From the article again:
When a neighborhood gets to be around 50 years old, it reaches a crossroads. The patina of newness has completely worn off. The houses are now well into their second life-cycle of exterior maintenance, and many are in need of significant and costly interior updates. Will existing homeowners be willing to shell out the money for needed upgrades, or will they sell cheap, and move on to greener pastures? The answer to that question depends a lot on anticipated resale value, and can determine the fate of the neighborhood. -- emphasis mine...

We know what happened to the jellybean buildings, the building besides the irving office building. The numerous vacant lots within the city core.

The solution in Akron Ohio was a 15 year tax abatement on new construction and renovated housing to renew its housing stock.

"The City of Akron's residential property tax abatement program exempts 100% of the added property value on any new home construction or home renovation (valued at approximately $5,000 or more), for a period of 15 years." -https://www.akronohio.gov/departments/planning_urban_development/residential_tax_abatement.php

Thoughts?

Saint John has virtually nothing in common with Akron. Akron was a very large manufacturing center and city. Saint John was never anything close to that scale or size. Not sure you would call Saint John a rust belt city either until at least the years after Irving Oil closes down.

[TitleRequired]

Originally Posted by DevelopmentAndy

Saint John has virtually nothing in common with Akron. Akron was a very large manufacturing center and city. Saint John was never anything close to that scale or size. Not sure you would call Saint John a rust belt city either until at least the years after Irving Oil closes down.

There are parallels. Old housing base, industrial city, long term out migration with flat population growth until very recently. Can I also remind you of the Sugar refinery, simms, drydiock and of the current AIM rust pile on the wharf that is actually rusting?

Saint John is a large manufacturing centre, any way you cut it. Lumber, Paper, Chemical Products; and that's just the Irving family; not discounting the manufacturing facilities that have closed.

We can either learn from what Akron has done, or not. The lessons from Akron are more suitable than looking at what Moncton has done, since repeating adfinitum that we should be doing what Moncton does isn't working as a strategy.

[TitleRequired]

Facepalm.

Fire marshal shuts down Saint John boardwalk patios

https://www.country94.ca/2024/06/06/fire-marshal-shuts-down-saint-john-boardwalk-patios/

[sailor734]

Already posted in Uptown SJ and Fundy Quay/South Market Wharf threads

[DyAm00394]

Proposed Zoning By-Law Amendment RE: 910 Fairville Boulevard

"Public Notice is hereby given that the Common Council of The City of Saint John intends to consider amending The City of Saint John Zoning By-law at its regular meeting to be held in the Council Chambers on Monday, July 8, 2024, at 6:30 p.m., by:


1. Rezoning a parcel of land having an area of approximately 12,242 square metres, located at 910 Fairville Boulevard, also identified as PID 00402446, from Regional Commercial (CR) to Regional Commercial Residential (CR-R) as illustrated below.



REASON FOR CHANGE:

To permit a mixed-use development".

This is directly across from the west side Sobeys and next to the small plaza with Taco Bell, Mary Brown's and Mr. Lube.

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by DyAm00394

Proposed Zoning By-Law Amendment RE: 910 Fairville Boulevard



This is directly across from the west side Sobeys and next to the small plaza with Taco Bell, Mary Brown's and Mr. Lube.

Maybe we'll finally get another apartment building nearby to help justify the plural in "Aquarius Towers"

[DevelopmentAndy]

Originally Posted by TitleRequired

There are parallels. Old housing base, industrial city, long term out migration with flat population growth until very recently. Can I also remind you of the Sugar refinery, simms, drydiock and of the current AIM rust pile on the wharf that is actually rusting?

Saint John is a large manufacturing centre, any way you cut it. Lumber, Paper, Chemical Products; and that's just the Irving family; not discounting the manufacturing facilities that have closed.

We can either learn from what Akron has done, or not. The lessons from Akron are more suitable than looking at what Moncton has done, since repeating adfinitum that we should be doing what Moncton does isn't working as a strategy.

Saint John is not close to a rust belt city. Yes some employers have closed closed and others have expanded (mostly Irving - JD or Oil). Akron was much larger and dependent on the rubber industry for much of its boom years. They lost tens of thousands of jobs. Maybe they both have some old housing stock - that is about it. Much of Saint John's economy was built on the port which Akron does not have so.... not getting it.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by TitleRequired

There are parallels. Old housing base, industrial city, long term out migration with flat population growth until very recently. Can I also remind you of the Sugar refinery, simms, drydiock and of the current AIM rust pile on the wharf that is actually rusting?

Saint John is a large manufacturing centre, any way you cut it. Lumber, Paper, Chemical Products; and that's just the Irving family; not discounting the manufacturing facilities that have closed.

We can either learn from what Akron has done, or not. The lessons from Akron are more suitable than looking at what Moncton has done, since repeating adfinitum that we should be doing what Moncton does isn't working as a strategy.

And let's not forget Bricklin as well!

[TitleRequired]

Originally Posted by DevelopmentAndy

Saint John is not close to a rust belt city. Yes some employers have closed closed and others have expanded (mostly Irving - JD or Oil). Akron was much larger and dependent on the rubber industry for much of its boom years. They lost tens of thousands of jobs. Maybe they both have some old housing stock - that is about it. Much of Saint John's economy was built on the port which Akron does not have so.... not getting it.

Thank you for your kind post. While we can disagree on the similarities and differences between the two cities, I was wondering if you had read the article describing possible solutions to our elderly housing stock. Described as decrepit by some.

What’s your proposal brah?