Broadway Subway - Millennium Line Extension to Arbutus | U/C

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Hooknose

If they can build a 40 story building at Granville and Broadway in a year (one floor a week) why do they need three more years to add two floors to a station?

Maybe if we were always continuously constructing several transit lines at a time and had a workforce to draw on that was skilled and experienced at all the intricacies of design, construction and qualification of all of the aspects of such projects we might be able to make faster progress. But we're stuck with a Broadway line that's a bespoke construction project that needs to take the time to make sure that it's done right.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by Hooknose

By "questioning the status quo" do you mean the BC and Vancouver scene or the scene on this forum.

Both.

...now back to lurking .

[Jimbo604]

Originally Posted by Lexus

2024, May 27

Main Street

Untitled by Lexus LX, on Flickr

BC Gov News: Two major infrastructure projects reach milestones
Friday, May 24, 2024 1:00 PM https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2024MOTI0065-000799

"Design and construction activities on the Broadway Subway Project, which also began during the pandemic in September 2020, have taken longer than originally expected, including work to relocate major utilities and install traffic decks, while keeping traffic moving along Broadway. Tunnelling, which included boring under the Canada Line, and station excavation also took longer. This was in part due to a five-week concrete strike in 2022 that delayed construction of the launch pad for the tunnel-boring machines. Despite making significant progress so far, the new line is expected to go into service in fall 2027.

On projects of this size, delays have the potential to affect other construction activities. While mitigation efforts were made to recover both project schedules, it wasn’t always possible."

What can you do... we move on, hopefully forward. As Lexus' photo shows, the line is far from completion currently.

[s211]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

We need an in-house, government-run engineering, design, and construction corporation to take on infrastructure projects like these, that can continuously work on projects around the country.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by s211

Something, something, US Army Corps of Engineers exists.

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by s211

Thoughtful discussion

[madog222]

Image from Provice of BC

The roof is going up at GNW-Emily Carr Station. This is the first station roof to be constructed, out of the 6 stations.

This photo shows all 3 levels of the station: the platform level, the concourse level & preparations for the station roof underway in the background.

https://x.com/broadwaysubway_/status/1796240538703642959

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

Something, something, US Army Corps of Engineers exists.

i wish we had something like them. they have done some impressive projects, and continue to do so. when reading up on them, it really is crazy how much theyve done.

its a good way to keep your skills sharpened, and experience there. in canada, we love doing everything in peaks & troughs. so we end up paying more always having to relearn everything again. would be better to just continually do stuff.

[officedweller]

Pic by me yesterday of the Broadway City Hall station:

[s211]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

Thoughtful discussion

Sorry, it took some time to clean the spit-take coffee off my screen and keyboard.

"In-house, government-run engineering, design, and construction corporation", you said? And you wonder why I completely bust a gut?

I can only surmise that theory came from an SFU poli-sci textbook.

[BaddieB]

Originally Posted by s211

Sorry, it took some time to clean the spit-take coffee off my screen and keyboard.

"In-house, government-run engineering, design, and construction corporation", you said? And you wonder why I completely bust a gut?

I can only surmise that theory came from an SFU poli-sci textbook.

So I don't know what kind of argument you are making, because you aren't presenting one, but if it is that government-run entities are inefficient, I would counter that by saying relying on consultants and contractors for everything is also very inefficient. Keeping things in-house can reduce costs and improve efficiency. Such agencies exist, like the US Army Corps of Engineers.

Also what is the 19th century aristocrat tone ijbol

[Migrant_Coconut]

Let's not pretend the private sector is inherently cheaper, less corrupt and/or more efficient at building trains - subcontractors are a large part of why California's HSR is 10-13 years behind schedule and $100 billion over-budget, and SNC only "saved" money on the Canada Line by scrapping three stations and watering down the rest.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Let's not pretend the private sector is inherently cheaper, less corrupt and/or more efficient at building trains - subcontractors are a large part of why California's HSR is 10-13 years behind schedule and $100 billion over-budget, and SNC only "saved" money on the Canada Line by scrapping three stations and watering down the rest.

Not to mention that every layer of subcontractor will charge an automatic profit margin on their subcontractors' work and so on and so on. Rent seeking is never good economics.

[LeftCoaster]

I'm not some tea party privatize everything zealot, but having worked with various levels of government very closely I would say that an in-house group trying to pull off something as complicated and nuanced as engineering and construction management of major projects like this it simply wouldn't work.

Government wages don't pay enough to attract the best, brightest and most ambitious, and anytime they try the electorate blows a gasket at how much they are paying for those services.

Throw in the fact that you have one less level of buffer between the politicians and the people making often times unpopular decisions just seems like a recipe for disaster.

There are times where crown corps and public services make a lot of sense, this just isnt one of them IMO.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

There are times where crown corps and public services make a lot of sense, this just isnt one of them IMO.

There has been no shortage of theorizing about why North American public transit projects (and nuclear power, and other big infrastructure projects) cost so much. But a common theme for these big projects is that soft costs such as engineering have increased significantly compared to hard costs.

Perhaps one of the better analysis of transit costs specifically is this NYU study. It puts a lot of blame at the feet of little to no institutional knowledge at the government bodies charged with carrying out or supervising these projects. Another study I recently read was this one on nuclear power plants. It came to similar conclusions.

Government entities can be bloated with too many employees, spend money on frivolous items, and fall behind padded construction schedules. But private companies can do the same. You're likely right that it simply wouldn't be politically feasible to build a provincial or federal infrastructure super taskforce, charged with parachuting into Toronto or Vancouver or Calgary or Saskatoon whenever a RRT, BRT, major bridge, or other project needs to be planned and executed. But it's undeniable that if such a taskforce was built, and its members didn't spend a significant amount of time sitting around waiting for work, it would be cheaper than paying private consulting firms to do all the work. I work in professional services and bill at $300 per hour. Meanwhile, I earn something like $40 per hour. That spread covers some actual costs like shared services, office rent, and benefits, but most of it ends up padding the bottom line. This wouldn't be necessary if the government did the work themselves.

[Stainer]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

...subcontractors are a large part of why California's HSR is 10-13 years behind schedule and $100 billion over-budget

This isn't the thread for it, but that isn't correct. The biggest reason behind HSR turning into a mess was starting construction more than a decade before the design was complete ish.

If you start building your project before the design is complete, you're gonna have a real bad time.

Highly recommend reading the book How Big Things Get done https://www.amazon.ca/How-Big-Things-Get-Done/dp/077109843X
It explains in great detail why so many projects go over budget.

[s211]

Originally Posted by Stainer

This isn't the thread for it, but that isn't correct. The biggest reason behind HSR turning into a mess was starting construction more than a decade before the design was complete ish.

If you start building your project before the design is complete, you're gonna have a real bad time.

Highly recommend reading the book How Big Things Get done https://www.amazon.ca/How-Big-Things-Get-Done/dp/077109843X
It explains in great detail why so many projects go over budget.

And that HSR project got fought at every turn by politics and political agendas.

[s211]

Originally Posted by BaddieB

Also what is the 19th century aristocrat tone ijbol

Early 20th, please!

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Stainer

This isn't the thread for it, but that isn't correct. The biggest reason behind HSR turning into a mess was starting construction more than a decade before the design was complete ish.

If you start building your project before the design is complete, you're gonna have a real bad time.

It's both; Cali's also hired too many independent middlemen whose only stake in the project is getting as many of the government's blank cheques as they can for as long as possible. But I too digress.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

that whole project is a mess. whatever they did. we MUST avoid that. at all costs. would rather the project not start, than go through what cali is. its ridiculous.