The Big Atlantic Canada Statistics Thread

[Helladog]

While there’s plenty of discussion wrt city size and growth, what truly makes a city great is good leadership, great jobs and opportunities, and excellent amenities. Of course this includes a balanced budget and sustainability.

While it’s nice to dream of how our favourite city will be bigger in a few decades, I’d rather make my favourite city a place I’d like to continue to live in.

If Saint John had grown to over 200 000 as it could have, but continued to be a stinky, mostly industrial city with negative people, I wouldn’t want to live there. As it is, even with slower growth over the years it’s become a great place to live. Just have to get some leadership in place to continue this momentum.

[new kid in town]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Saint John still feels like a bigger city than Moncton, because the architecture Uptown, because the port, and the bridge/viaduct. Moncton feels far more suburban compared to Saint John.

Monctonian here, I actually agree with this. First city in NB that felt like I could be driving in the GTA or at least the outskirts of GTA.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by new kid in town

Monctonian here, I actually agree with this. First city in NB that felt like I could be driving in the GTA or at least the outskirts of GTA.

I don't disagree either. Moncton is not a typical Maritime city. It is more of a stereotypical mid-Canadian city by most metrics. This is because, although settlement here extends as far back as 1733, the city only really began to grow in the 1890s. It is simply a newer city.

If Saint Johners want to use this fact to cast shade on us, that's fine. It's simply a fact of life. As the city continues to grow, it will densify, but it will never have the built form of Saint John.

I'm OK with that.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Helladog

While there’s plenty of discussion wrt city size and growth, what truly makes a city great is good leadership, great jobs and opportunities, and excellent amenities. Of course this includes a balanced budget and sustainability.

While it’s nice to dream of how our favourite city will be bigger in a few decades, I’d rather make my favourite city a place I’d like to continue to live in.

If Saint John had grown to over 200 000 as it could have, but continued to be a stinky, mostly industrial city with negative people, I wouldn’t want to live there. As it is, even with slower growth over the years it’s become a great place to live. Just have to get some leadership in place to continue this momentum.

The Saint John CMA need better leadership. Higgs is the first premier from the Saint John region in a very long time, and he's done next to nothing to actually help the city out, but has gone out of his way to take away financing agreements that the city. Saint John has just been lucky people have been moving to NB in larger than normal numbers since 2020. The museum is perhaps the one good thing he's done for the city the entire time he's been in office.


Some people like to pretend like Saint John went from 90,000 to 65,000 people because they all left and moved to Fort Mac. When it's pretty obvious most of them just moved out to the valley, and many continued working in Saint John. The people who I've heard the most negative things about Saint John, in Saint John, are people who work in Saint John, but live in the valley. I've had retail workers in Saint John go out of their way to tell me why they prefer living in the valley. These people have no problem working in Saint John, but living in it? eww!

I just think it's beyond the pale at this point, whether we're talking Rothesay, Quispamsis, Grand Bay, Musquash, or Hampton it's all the same general area, but the divide between city and not city, and the tribalism it brings out, it's very negative, very counter productive, and just wastes a lot of money on services that would be better served by a single regional municipality. The issue of unfair taxation is a pretty glaring disadvantage for Saint John, which has turned many people away from buying within the city limits. Just think how many real estate agents have convinced buyers from outside of NB to buy in the valley instead of Saint John since 2020 alone. It's a pervasive issue, negativity and stereotypes about the city of Saint John, positivity about the valley.

I find it perplexing why people in Rothesay consider amalgamation with Saint John such an existential threat, when in most other cities in Canada, the most exclusive suburbs are within the city limits. If amalgamation were to happen, the rich neighbourhoods would still dominate the politics of the region and their neighbourhoods with the most expensive homes, would still get the best treatment, and best services. The difference is they could actually see a valley resident become the Mayor of Saint John, or the whole region rather, and this is something that would likely happen often in post amalgamation elections.

However, beyond the cost savings, and bringing about some tax fairness between city and suburbs once comprehensive tax reform has been realized, amalgamation offers up the Saint John Region an even more tantalizing opportunity. That opportunity is a chance to lessen the confusion with St. John's Newfoundland by picking a new name for the amalgamated region. Let Rothesay be Rothesay, Let Quispam by Quispam, and Saint John be Saint John, let the founding communities retain their names, but come up with an entirely new name for the Regional Municipality a whole. Whether that name be Wolastoq, Fundy, or literally anything other than Saint John, not only would a new name for the region help with the never ending branding confusion of Saint John's name being so similar with St. Johns... it would also help make the amalgamation pill a little less bitter for the valley residents to swallow. They'd be amalgamating, but at least they wouldn't be forced to become part the City of Saint John.

I'd love to hear the arguments against amalgamation from the KV crowd and Saint John's resident pessimists and valley simps, especially here in this thread where the example of Halifax's success with amalgamation is just all too relevant and within hands reach. Regional amalgamation and comprehensive tax reform are the two positive changes the Saint John Region needs the most, imo. A name change would just be the added bonus.

[Pugsley]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

The museum is perhaps the one good thing he's done for the city the entire time he's been in office.

Actually, all he did was delay it. I believe he cancelled the original waterfront museum plan by the Liberals out of spite and then before an election, re-invented it in a new space like he's some hero. Like the F-up done with the Courthouse and Centennial Building in Fredericton, same spiteful rationale to cancel the plans. Both would have been open by now and we'd be onto other projects had he not intervened and screwed things up.

He's like having an elderly parent you need to start leaving nursing home brochures hidden around his house to "soften the blow" before the kids pull the trigger and intervene this Fall. IMHO

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by new kid in town

Monctonian here, I actually agree with this. First city in NB that felt like I could be driving in the GTA or at least the outskirts of GTA.

GTA lmao ( I thought you mean the video game). I've lived in much bigger cities than Saint John, but the viaduct and through way really does feel like freeways in much bigger places. It's just too bad how much it disconnected the West Side from the rest of the city, and that pedestrians and cyclists still can't get a path or deck across the bridge.

Moncton seems to be a much more pedestrian bicycle friendly city, and the round a bouts are really something else Your city seems to be able to stick to a vision and execute it, while Saint Johners get bogged down arguing.

I think it's impressive how many high rises Moncton has been building, and I wasn't trying to throw shade at Moncton by pointing out that Saint John feels like a bigger city based on its built environment like the port/harbour, bridge/viaduct, or its historic city centre dating back to the 1700's and 1800's. If anything I throwing shade at my own city for being so slow in building high rises since the freaking 1970's.

We get excited about a bunch of mostly mid housing developments in our threads, while Moncton is building what many people in the maritimes would consider to be a skyscrapers.





Moncton might actually look like the bigger city based on skyline pictures in 10 or 15 years. If Saint John takes almost an entire decade to put up a single 20 storey building, and are still mostly relying on local developers to build up the skyline, while Moncton is building them left and right, i wouldn't be surprised to see the Saint John skyline mostly unchanged even 20 years from now, while Moncton's will almost certainly be a night and day difference. For the sake of my city, I hope that is not the case.

As i mentioned in the previous comment, Blaine Higgs is the first premier from the Saint John region in a long time... yet an Acadien from Shediac seemed to have a far keener interest to invest in Saint John than Higgs in his own region. I wouldn't be surprised if Shediac starts building some legitimate residential high rises to take advantage of their coastal views, before Saint John finally "gets it" and starts doing the same. Fundy Quay is at least something to look forward to, but when you think about whats been built in Shediac since the Fundy Quay project was first announced, it's pretty astounding how much the Moncton region is outpacing the rest of the province. I say bravo, and hope our city and regional leaders take note and even try to emulate Moncton's success.

Had Gallant stayed premier, who knows... maybe building Brunswick Square to its full 36 storey potential could have been in the cards as part of his governments solution to the housing crisis. If built some affordable housing high rises in the south end. If any city in New Brunswick needs more affordable housing it's Saint John... we have a much higher child poverty rate, lower incomes per resident, and more slumlords and decrepit buildings than any other city in New Brunswick.

Clearly, the next government is going to have to think and do things a little more boldly than Higgs has been willing to actually get at fixing the housing crisis and make it possible to sustain these historic levels of immigration into the future without causing too many socio economic problems from the lack of affordable housing.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

Actually, all he did was delay it. I believe he cancelled the original waterfront museum plan by the Liberals out of spite and then before an election, re-invented it in a new space like he's some hero. Like the F-up done with the Courthouse and Centennial Building in Fredericton, same spiteful rationale to cancel the plans. Both would have been open by now and we'd be onto other projects had he not intervened and screwed things up.

He's like having an elderly parent you need to start leaving nursing home brochures hidden around his house to "soften the blow" before the kids pull the trigger and intervene this Fall. IMHO

You're not going to ever hear me praise Higgs, but it was the right decision in the end. (To go with the Douglas Avenue Site) How he went about it though, was pathetic. He cancelled the decent plan by the Liberals for the museum Uptown pretty soon after he was elected, and then dangled the possibility of the oldest museum in Canada possibly leaving Saint John in favour or Moncton or Fredericton.

The Douglas Avenue site is just cool and it woulda been sad to see it go by the wayside like the Customs House and so many other historic Saint John buildings that bit the dust. Anyone you talk to who visited the museum when it was there has very fond memories, and will usually say it was much better than the Market Square museum. Also, it's not even his idea, there were already a vision and plans for an expansion and refurbishment of the Douglas Avenue museum... he just resurrected it and took credit. But it's still nice to see something big happen outside of Uptown for once.

Still, a mistake that needs to be corrected in the future is some sort of exhibition space in Uptown Saint John. Whether that's Brunswick Square, back in Market Square, or something new... there should be something significant relating to the museum Uptown.

Finally, I still think a museum ship should be part of the NB Museum one day. We're the only province with a freaking ship on our flag, and our province built thousands of ships throughout our history, more than almost any other province, iirc. Whether it's a wooden tall ship, or securing funding to bring back one of the Halifax Class Frigates that were built here in Saint John to be a museum ship, a museum ship would be one of the coolest, most interesting, and movable additions to the NB Museum that would be possible.

[new kid in town]

Just want to clarify by GTA, I meant Greater Toronto Area not Grand Theft Auto lol

[new kid in town]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I don't disagree either. Moncton is not a typical Maritime city. It is more of a stereotypical mid-Canadian city by most metrics. This is because, although settlement here extends as far back as 1733, the city only really began to grow in the 1890s. It is simply a newer city.

If Saint Johners want to use this fact to cast shade on us, that's fine. It's simply a fact of life. As the city continues to grow, it will densify, but it will never have the built form of Saint John.

I'm OK with that.

The last time I posted about me marvelling at Saint John's ramps, some other Monctonians said they'd rather not see those in the city. Which is fine, but I do wonder how we can make our roads and highway ramps accommodate more traffic if we continue to densify for the next couple decades. I've been noticing the left turns into the TCH are getting really congested on certain days/time periods. Being a "new" city should hopefully also mean we are planning ahead, no?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by new kid in town

The last time I posted about me marvelling at Saint John's ramps, some other Monctonians said they'd rather not see those in the city. Which is fine, but I do wonder how we can make our roads and highway ramps accommodate more traffic if we continue to densify for the next couple decades. I've been noticing the left turns into the TCH are getting really congested on certain days/time periods. Being a "new" city should hopefully also mean we are planning ahead, no?

The city/province seem allergic to the concept of additional signalization on the highway exits. This is an easy fix.

The other alternative is roundabouts at the highway exits like they're doing in NS, but, I personally don't like this.

[MonctonGoldenTri]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I don't disagree either. Moncton is not a typical Maritime city. It is more of a stereotypical mid-Canadian city by most metrics. This is because, although settlement here extends as far back as 1733, the city only really began to grow in the 1890s. It is simply a newer city.

If Saint Johners want to use this fact to cast shade on us, that's fine. It's simply a fact of life. As the city continues to grow, it will densify, but it will never have the built form of Saint John.

I'm OK with that.

The same as Saint John, no. Similiar to a modern Downtown, yes, especially in between Main/Assumption. The biggest issue Moncton's Downtown is it's currently too spread out with empty spaces in between the major/dense areas. Being the lead speculator on the Moncton threads you're obviously well aware most if not all of parking surface area is about to be developed. IMO you're being a little too humble

Like I posted on the official Moncton thread:

" I don't think many realize how massive the Ashford downing street project is, it will stretch all the way to the 3 Sisters when it's 100% completed roughly 15 acres.
I used this tool to calculate the square footage/aces: https://www.mapdevelopers.com/area_finder.php "

The total area for the Ashford project is roughly 15 acres (14.84) When you include confirmed and rumored(insider confirmed); 2 brothers, old Tim Hortons property, 3 sisters, 18s St Bernard and 30s Icon. Total developed mid to high rise area is roughly 23.82 acres. This doesn't include any of the 14 low rise recently developed/In-construction buildings in our downtown core (3x4s, 8x6s, 1x8s, Avenir, NB Court).

In the span of 10-15 years Moncton downtown will have added at minimum 19 buildings, most of which is already completed, plus another 5-8 buildings(Ashford downing street + Lafford)

For comparison Fundy Quay total area is close to 6 acres (5.78). The scale of these projects in total is nearly FOUR times the size of the Fundy Quay. Reason for comparing, these are strictly downtown/uptown projects.

I think some individuals are painfully unaware just how much downtown Moncton has recently developed, this isn't the same Moncton from the 90's or early 2000's, it's obvious some have not set foot downtown in quite some time. I challenge some of you to attend an Avenir event to experience the crowd/buzz/excitement from Moncton's downtown much like you would in a large city, massive crowds in every direction, packed resto/bars and mid-high rise building construction in the background view which really ads that "big city" vibe. This is an experience that can't be matched from the TD Station due to its poor location on the extremities of Saint John's uptown. I've attended and participated in well over a dozen events at the TD Station and the experience isn't remotely close, it feels more like a Moncton Coliseum experience if I'm being honest.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by new kid in town

Just want to clarify by GTA, I meant Greater Toronto Area not Grand Theft Auto lol

Lmao I see the, the now… I totally thought you meant Grand Theft Auto lol

[MonctonGoldenTri]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

If Saint John was a top 10 and top 20 city in Canada, then it was a mid sized city, no matter what arbitrary goal posts you’re moving around. It’s no longer a mid sized city， but neither is Moncton for that matter. Also, trying to say SJ was never a mid size city is just so petty like come on now!

You’ve sure typed a whole lot here to basically say “Moncton perfect- Saint John dismal”

What you’re referring to with tourism numbers isn’t what I’m talking about. How many of those million visitors to the Moncton Region also went to Saint John? I’m talking about the perception of the three cities based on their built environment and first impressions for a tourist that visited all three cities. Saint John still feels like a bigger city than Moncton, because the architecture Uptown, because the port, and the bridge/viaduct. Moncton feels far more suburban compared to Saint John.

Like I said before, Moncton is clearly doing a lot of things way better than Saint John. If Moncton keeps on building high rises at this rate, while Saint John struggles to build them, Moncton may very well fell bigger than Saint John based on the built environment one day too.

No goalpost, just facts.

USA Largest city 1870

1 New York 942,292
2 Philadelphia 674,022
3 Brooklyn 396,099
4 St. Louis 310,864
5 Chicago 298,977
6 Baltimore 267,354
7 Boston 250,526
8 Cincinnati 216,239
9 New Orleans 191,418
10 San Francisco 149,473

Canada Largest cities 1871

1 Montreal 107,225
2 Quebec City 59,699
3 Toronto 56,092
4 Halifax 29,582
5 Saint John 28,805
6 Hamilton 26,716
7 Ottawa 21,545
8 London 15,826
9 Portland 12,520
10 Kingston 12,407


Canada objectively/factually had zero large cities in the 1800's but I suppose you could make the argument that Montreal was a mid-sized for the times but it was still relatively small. Just because Quebec and Toronto were #2/3 respectively, it doesn't mean they were "big" cities, there we're both objectively small. With Canada being a new/young country this is to be expected and there's nothing shocking about this.

Montreal was the largest city had a population of 1,500 in the early 1700's, was it big because it was #1? no absolutely not.

I also never said Moncton was perfect, far from it. But every time I highlight the positives from Moncton it seems to always trigger a negative reaction/scoff from some Saint John members.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

Lmao I see the, the now… I totally thought you meant Grand Theft Auto lol

[new kid in town]

Originally Posted by Nashe

What a mess lol

[Pugsley]

OK. OK.

Can everyone zip back up their pants and put the measuring tapes away now? That, or create a separate thread called "Ultimate Moncton v. Saint John Smackdown Showdown for the Crown"?

I'd like to NOT scroll through 20 separate short-story length posts to find some relevant nugget of information relevant to the thread topic.

Please and thank you.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by Pugsley

OK. OK.

Can everyone zip back up their pants and put the measuring tapes away now? That, or create a separate thread called "Ultimate Moncton v. Saint John Smackdown Showdown for the Crown"?

I'd like to NOT scroll through 20 separate short-story length posts to find some relevant nugget of information relevant to the thread topic.

Please and thank you.

Sounds like a novel concept for a thread lol, why don’t you start it? The fact we’re arguing over whether Moncton is now a mid sized Canadian city or if SJ ever was is just beyond petty and pedantic at this point lol


Edit: The GTA photoshop is at least pretty hilarious

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MonctonGoldenTri

No goalpost, just facts.

USA Largest city 1870

1 New York 942,292
2 Philadelphia 674,022
3 Brooklyn 396,099
4 St. Louis 310,864
5 Chicago 298,977
6 Baltimore 267,354
7 Boston 250,526
8 Cincinnati 216,239
9 New Orleans 191,418
10 San Francisco 149,473

Canada Largest cities 1871

1 Montreal 107,225
2 Quebec City 59,699
3 Toronto 56,092
4 Halifax 29,582
5 Saint John 28,805
6 Hamilton 26,716
7 Ottawa 21,545
8 London 15,826
9 Portland 12,520
10 Kingston 12,407


Canada objectively/factually had zero large cities in the 1800's but I suppose you could make the argument that Montreal was a mid-sized for the times but it was still relatively small. Just because Quebec and Toronto were #2/3 respectively, it doesn't mean they were "big" cities, there we're both objectively small. With Canada being a new/young country this is to be expected and there's nothing shocking about this.

Montreal was the largest city had a population of 1,500 in the early 1700's, was it big because it was #1? no absolutely not.

I also never said Moncton was perfect, far from it. But every time I highlight the positives from Moncton it seems to always trigger a negative reaction/scoff from some Saint John members.

You literally said Moncton’s location was perfect multiple times.

Do I really need to explain the concept of relatively to you? And I don’t mean physics. If Saint John was once a top 5, top 10, and top 20 city in Canada, then it was by very definition a mid sized Canadian city at many points throughout its history. Not in a global context, or 2024 definition of city size, but historically it was a mid sized Canadian city relative to other Canadian cities. There’s nothing really to debate about here, and zero need to whip out stats for US cities

You’re psyched on Moncton’s growth, great, but there’s no need to disparage Saint John while posting about Moncton’s success.

[EnvisionSaintJohn]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Projected Metropolitan Populations of Atlantic Canadian Cities in 2050 (all things remaining constant)

1) Halifax, NS - 896,535
2) Moncton, NB - 340,249
3) St. John's, NL - 328,010
4) Saint John, NB - 190,528
5) Fredericton, NB - 186,366
6) Charlottetown, PE - 162,468
7) CBRM (Sydney), NS - 159,926

If Saint John is amalgamated by then, I’d really hope we’d go with a new name for the region as a whole. I know some people think Saint John’s name confusion with St. John’s isn’t a big deal, but I think it’s a much bigger deal than many are willing to admit, and one that is hard to quantify and find statistics on. It greatly impacts Saint John’s ability to market and brand itself, not just for tourism, but immigration too.

All I know for sure is that he naming confusion impacts Saint John more negatively than it does St. John’s, and that it would be good to figure out a way to deal with this issue once and for all. Changing the spelling from St. John to Saint John wasn’t it, but amalgamating and going with a new name for the region could be just the prescription needed to deal with the naming confusion between the Atlantic Canada’s two oldest cities with incredibly similar names.

[Helladog]

Originally Posted by EnvisionSaintJohn

If Saint John is amalgamated by then, I’d really hope we’d go with a new name for the region as a whole. I know some people think Saint John’s name confusion with St. John’s isn’t a big deal, but I think it’s a much bigger deal than many are willing to admit, and one that is hard to quantify and find statistics on. It greatly impacts Saint John’s ability to market and brand itself, not just for tourism, but immigration too.

All I know for sure is that he naming confusion impacts Saint John more negatively than it does St. John’s, and that it would be good to figure out a way to deal with this issue once and for all. Changing the spelling from St. John to Saint John wasn’t it, but amalgamating and going with a new name for the region could be just the prescription needed to deal with the naming confusion between the Atlantic Canada’s two oldest cities with incredibly similar names.

I’ve comedically brought this up before, and it’s true the branding is not on Saint John’s side for sure. That said, a different name would be a hard sell and the idea wouldn’t go anywhere.

In the end, anyone who matters already knows the difference. It’s up to City leadership to get out and sell the city as it stands to those who don’t.