Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[ssiguy]

You don't have to buy the entire track line and tell CP/CN to get lost. The entire Waterfront/NuWest/Fort Langley/Abby route has more than enough room to add at LEAST another track and probably 2. Such a line would serve downtown Abby, FL, the huge Glouchester industrial area, and have direct transfer stations onto SkyTrain at Scoot Road, Sapperton, Sperling-Burnaby Lake, Broadway, and Waterfront.

Contrary to popular belief, CN/CP do not usually have a problem using their corridors but it's the actual tracks they have an issue with. Translink/Victoria should be buying up land next to these tracks for their future use so as not to have to do it in 30 years when it will cost them 10X as much hoping the CN/CP hasn't already sold off the land. This does NOT require a lot of money nor having the money up front. They should have a LONG-term plan of buying up sections on a regular/yearly basis which is more financially viable and allows for a gradual introduction of service.

Commutes will continue to get longer and Vancouver's endless sprawl will only grow and Vancouver's notorious reputation of not building any highways or even expanding the ones they have, you MUST offer people alternative regional transit..........you can't have it both ways. This idea of just expanding SkyTrain into the Valley is ridiculous. There is a reason why no other city on the planet considers subways to the hinterlands as viable so why Translink thinks it's doable here is anyone's guess.

The commuters are coming and nothing is going to change that and so you either plan for them now or pay very dearly for it later both financially and as a quality of life metric.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The entire Waterfront/NuWest/Fort Langley/Abby route has more than enough room to add at LEAST another track and probably 2.

No it doesn't.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Such a line would serve downtown Abby, FL, the huge Glouchester industrial area, and have direct transfer stations onto SkyTrain at Scoot Road, Sapperton, Sperling-Burnaby Lake, Broadway, and Waterfront.

No it wouldn't.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Commutes will continue to get longer and Vancouver's endless sprawl will only grow and Vancouver's notorious reputation of not building any highways or even expanding the ones they have, you MUST offer people alternative regional transit..........you can't have it both ways. This idea of just expanding SkyTrain into the Valley is ridiculous. There is a reason why no other city on the planet considers subways to the hinterlands as viable so why Translink thinks it's doable here is anyone's guess.

$5.3 billion for 4,000 boardings/day, or $4.1 billion for 80,000 boardings/day... which one do you think solves more traffic? I'll give you a hint: it's the one with more riders.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

You don't have to buy the entire track line and tell CP/CN to get lost. The entire Waterfront/NuWest/Fort Langley/Abby route has more than enough room to add at LEAST another track and probably 2.

Oh really?

[Vin]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

It also takes a shedload of money to buy up land beside existing freight lines, where that land even exists to buy -- it doesn't along part of the rails through New Westminster, for example. And what do you do about spurs and overpasses and underpasses and existing buildings? Creating a whole new train line next to existing ones is nigh impossible for a huge number of reasons.

There is something called "gradual expansion".

We are already in a good position currently because there are some light lines which can be readily utilized by the WCE.

Nigh impossible only for those who have no interest in rail development. How do other cities with even less land do it then? Guess the people there are smarter?

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

No it doesn't.



No it wouldn't.

Yes it does.

Yes it would.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by Vin

We can see who has more foresight. No wonder Toronto remains the powerhouse of this country. It all boils down to the mentality of the people.

It's quite alarming seeing how much hate the "Restore Island Rail" campaign has gotten in the past several months. The same usual cast on social media continue to regurgitate the same rhetoric and see rail as a threat to their autonomy. It's a weird complex that stems from their political orientation or ideological beliefs.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

Oh really?

That line there is hardly used, and is only secondary when it comes to WCE expansion.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

Yes it does.

Yes it would.

No. Waterfront and New West are maxed out.

No. SRY skips Fort Langley, and CN skips Gloucester; both ignore Whalley and "downtown" Abbotsford and have no room to transfer to Broadway, making them doomed from the start. There's a reason why TransLink ditched the original Millennium Line loop - it sucked.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

It's quite alarming seeing how much hate the "Restore Island Rail" campaign has gotten in the past several months. The same usual cast on social media continue to regurgitate the same rhetoric and see rail as a threat to their autonomy. It's a weird complex that stems from their political orientation or ideological beliefs.

People love their smoke-spewing automobiles so much they can't stand seeing others have their preferred share of public transport to exist. They don't realize the fact that large portions of government coffers have been used to maintain the roads and highways for their own hulk of metal dinosaurs for many many decades. It is time to support forms of people-mover which are a lot more efficient and environmentally friendly for the future.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

It's quite alarming seeing how much hate the "Restore Island Rail" campaign has gotten in the past several months. The same usual cast on social media continue to regurgitate the same rhetoric and see rail as a threat to their autonomy. It's a weird complex that stems from their political orientation or ideological beliefs.

Eh, Island Rail's a moot point now that the Snaw-Naw-As, Halalt (possibly) and other reserves are all getting their parts of the corridor returned to them. If any part of the rail ends up being restarted, it'll be between Langford/Colwood and Victoria where all the actual people movement is.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

No. Waterfront and New West are maxed out.

No. SRY skips Fort Langley, and CN skips Gloucester; both ignore Whalley and "downtown" Abbotsford and have no room to transfer to Broadway, making them doomed from the start. There's a reason why TransLink ditched the original Millennium Line loop - it sucked.

Not true at all. Both places are not "maxed out". There may be some constrictions as pointed out, but nothing that cannot be solved.

Downtown Abby can be served from the north via the Mission route during the first expansion phase, and continuing all the way to Fort Langley/Surrey is even possible.

In the future, even dedicated guideways at Waterfront and along the riverfront at New West can be constructed if WCE commuting becomes even more ubiquitous.

https://www.gh3.ca/work/davenport-diamond-guideway

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

- snip -

Entirely true. For TransLink and/or Victoria to spend the billions required to make an elevated guideway happen, the WCE needs to have 4x the ridership it has now. Otherwise it'll have to be at-grade rail, which is definitely maxed out and still bad value for money compared to running more M-Line trains and R3 buses.

Downtown Abbotsford is near Sevenoaks. No existing train ROW covers that area, and a bus shuttle from the SRY begs the question of why we can't just upgrade the FVX - it'll get you there faster.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Entirely true. For TransLink and/or Victoria to spend the billions required to make an elevated guideway happen, the WCE needs to have 4x the ridership it has now.

Otherwise it'll have to be at-grade rail, which is definitely maxed out and still bad value for money compared to running more M-Line trains and R3 buses.

If more people can give up their cars or transfer from buses to trains, we have the numbers even now.

And for the guideways, I am only talking about the future.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

If more people can give up their cars or transfer from buses to trains, we have the numbers even now.

And for the guideways, I am only talking about the future.

The WCE is the only train in Vancouver that hasn't recovered its pre-pandemic ridership. Evidently, not enough people want to give up the car/SkyTrain/bus - and a lot of them are already on rapid transit.

Then your only option in the present is at-grade rail, which again, is indeed maxed out.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Vin

We can see who has more foresight. No wonder Toronto remains the powerhouse of this country. It all boils down to the mentality of the people.

Yes, I think you're right. In Toronto, they seem to follow the philosophy of Fred Astaire: "Do it big, Do it right, and do it with style." Here, it's the opposite: "keep it small, keep it under-built, and keep it folksy."

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

The WCE is the only train in Vancouver that hasn't recovered its pre-pandemic ridership. Evidently, not enough people want to give up the car/SkyTrain/bus - and a lot of them are already on rapid transit.

Then your only option in the present is at-grade rail, which again, is indeed maxed out.

I think that has more to do with people that far out pushing for remote work or finding work that's closer... than it is about people giving up the car/SkyTrain/bus. Guarantee that almost all of the WCE riders have a car as well.

I support a track extending the WCE to Abbotsford. That to me is a no-brainer. The Interurban line won't work for various reasons. If we ever build HSR to Seattle, I wonder if it would terminate in Surrey (Scott Road, perhaps) or near the Airport (if it goes up the 99 Hwy).

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I think that has more to do with people that far out pushing for remote work or finding work that's closer... than it is about people giving up the car/SkyTrain/bus. Guarantee that almost all of the WCE riders have a car as well.

I support a track extending the WCE to Abbotsford... If we ever build HSR to Seattle, I wonder if it would terminate in Surrey (Scott Road, perhaps) or near the Airport (if it goes up the 99 Hwy).

Possible, but then why bother to increase the WCE's capacity? Anybody willing to go that far for work already has decent alternative options.

Well, duh - low cost, low reward. The only thing missing is Abbotsford paying into TransLink.

Probably Surrey. We had that conversation a while ago, and concluded that not many Americans are coming all the way up here just to use YVR. They've got airports at home.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Yes, I think you're right. In Toronto, they seem to follow the philosophy of Fred Astaire: "Do it big, Do it right, and do it with style." Here, it's the opposite: "keep it small, keep it under-built, and keep it folksy."

The difference is in the tax base. Toronto and its surroundings has a far larger economy to draw upon when it comes to funding these kinds of projects.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Possible, but then why bother to increase the WCE's capacity? Anybody willing to go that far for work already has decent alternative options.

Well, duh - low cost, low reward. The only thing missing is Abbotsford paying into TransLink.

More like a low-hanging fruit. The WCE is a good candidate for expansion of commuter rail. It's an existing ROW and adding Abbotsford's population base would boost usage considerably. Abby residents aren't driving to Mission to get on the WCE.

Probably Surrey. We had that conversation a while ago, and concluded that not many Americans are coming all the way up here just to use YVR. They've got airports at home.

It's not about YVR. It's about a less expensive connection to the city. I see nothing wrong with terminating HSR at or near the Airport or Surrey... but I think YVR is a better choice for Long Distance Rail. It would also provide the possibility of a shuttle train between Richmond and Surrey/WR.

It would also give more of Vancouver's population the ability to jump on a SkyTrain to get to the HSR station for a trip to Seattle... and even provide the opportunity for Americans visiting Seattle to come up to Vancouver for a weekend as part of their plan.

Long distance rail doesn't NEED to go downtown to be successful... as these stations are run more like trainports than train stations.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Eh, Island Rail's a moot point now that the Snaw-Naw-As, Halalt (possibly) and other reserves are all getting their parts of the corridor returned to them. If any part of the rail ends up being restarted, it'll be between Langford/Colwood and Victoria where all the actual people movement is.

The Snaw-Naw-As and Halalt territories are north of Duncan.

I could see regular service between Langford and Victoria with perhaps one or two trains a day extended to Duncan. Beyond that it is unlikely.