Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sorry but have to disagree very strongly here my friend.

The reactions to Quebec Bill 21 in the ROC (near-unanimous in the political, academic and media classes) are almost hysterical at times.

That's certainly the stuff you may have heard in the media and from far-left SJW types but I've never heard it in person anywhere.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Bill 21 clearly has xenophobic and racist motivations but also the actual text reflects fairly mainstream views that we need to limit dangerous ideologies in a secular society. The English Canada liberal obsession with anything that is a minority must be good is weird. Boomer liberals love to join Quebec in bashing Catholicism or Christianity but think it's fine to have a sweat lodge instead of chemotherapy in the name of Indigenous religious freedom.

As someone who lives in a community with a large Indigenous population and I'm part Indigenous, I sometimes find that some non-Indigenous people think they know Indigenous cultures better than the Indigenous peoples themselves.

I don't know of anyone who went to a sweat lodge or healing lodge instead of medical care.

I also disagree that most people in English speaking Canada agree that any kind of minority from whatever type of society is always good.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's unsurprising that this gang would sing it only in English, but since it is Canada's official royal anthem it does have French lyrics. I've never heard them though.

That is so embarrassing hearing them sing that. I'm guessing that it was entirely CPC MPs?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Loco101

As someone who lives in a community with a large Indigenous population and I'm part Indigenous, I sometimes find that some non-Indigenous people think they know Indigenous cultures better than the Indigenous peoples themselves.

I don't know of anyone who went to a sweat lodge or healing lodge instead of medical care.

I also disagree that most people in English speaking Canada agree that any kind of minority from whatever type of society is always good.

Culture is complicated. I am talking about the establishment supporting an actual girl who died because of deference to Indigenous religion/medicine.

https://globalnews.ca/news/1781714/ontar...1,refused%20chemo%20for%20her%20leukemia.

Do you have examples of English speaking liberals challenging any minority's values even when they conflict with their own?

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Culture is complicated. I am talking about the establishment supporting an actual girl who died because of deference to Indigenous religion/medicine.

https://globalnews.ca/news/1781714/ontar...1,refused%20chemo%20for%20her%20leukemia.

Do you have examples of English speaking liberals challenging any minority's values even when they conflict with their own?

The first example I can think of was when Dalton McGuinty was premier and the government explored sharia law in our court system as it was brought forward by special interests and the government soundly rejected it. There have also been many other human rights cases that have gone against religious and traditional cultural beliefs over the years.

I read that article and find it interesting that the family said the girls is now with Jesus so I'm assuming that they are Christian. And when they talk about traditional medicine they didn't define what it was. I can confidently say that a situation like the ones in the article don't represent today's Indigenous peoples very well at all. And Children's Aid Societies in Ontario aren't accountable to anyone so it was easier to just let the case go.

The Indigenous part of my family has only ever relied on the modern day health care system and believed in it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

The first example I can think of was when Dalton McGuinty was premier and the government explored sharia law in our court system as it was brought forward by special interests and the government soundly rejected it. There have also been many other human rights cases that have gone against religious and traditional cultural beliefs over the years.

.

Thank you for bringing that up. I recall Marion Boyd was also involved. That was 20 years ago, so I wonder how things would play out today.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

That's certainly the stuff you may have heard in the media and from far-left SJW types but I've never heard it in person anywhere.

It's true that polls show that 35-40% of ROCers agree with the basic idea behind Québec Bill 21.

I'm sure the topic doesn't come up that much, but when it does and I am in the company of Ontarians, most think the bill is awful.

On SSP where everyone is anonymous, I'd say 75 to 80% think the bill is awful.

Actually, who supports it on here who isn't a Francophone from Québec?

[urbandreamer]

I support it, but I know in reality it doesn't work because public life is a farce. What we should be doing is telling people what they can't do in private, in churches, businesses, private schools etc.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Loco101

The first example I can think of was when Dalton McGuinty was premier and the government explored sharia law in our court system as it was brought forward by special interests and the government soundly rejected it. There have also been many other human rights cases that have gone against religious and traditional cultural beliefs over the years.

I read that article and find it interesting that the family said the girls is now with Jesus so I'm assuming that they are Christian. And when they talk about traditional medicine they didn't define what it was. I can confidently say that a situation like the ones in the article don't represent today's Indigenous peoples very well at all. And Children's Aid Societies in Ontario aren't accountable to anyone so it was easier to just let the case go.

The Indigenous part of my family has only ever relied on the modern day health care system and believed in it.

My point and the relevance to this thread is English Canada accepted her crazy idea that caused here to die because of deference to Indigenous beliefs. Quebec wouldn't have done that. McGuinty considered incorporating Sharia law into Ontario practices. Which is nuts and was only stopped by backlash. (Racist and rational). Quebec would never consider such a thing.

There is no implication in my post that Indigenous people don't believe in science or something.

[urbandreamer]

I went to high school with a beautiful French Canadian girl who happened to be Jehovah's Witness. In first year college she got pregnant. Unfortunately, because her religion forbids blood transfusions, she died in childbirth along with her newborn. So tragic.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's true that polls show that 35-40% of ROCers agree with the basic idea behind Québec Bill 21.

I'm sure the topic doesn't come up that much, but when it does and I am in the company of Ontarians, most think the bill is awful.

On SSP where everyone is anonymous, I'd say 75 to 80% think the bill is awful.

Actually, who supports it on here who isn't a Francophone from Québec?

Polling it in ROC is tricky but 35% support seems reasonable. I support it even though I think it's motivations and implementation is problematic.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Polling it in ROC is tricky but 35% support seems reasonable. I support it even though I think it's motivations and implementation is problematic.

The conventional wisdom that it's horrible probably keep a lot of ROCers who support it from saying so unless they are with people they're confortable in confiding.

I mean "supports Quebec Bill 21" = "racist" is the dominant frame of mind.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The conventional wisdom that it's horrible probably keep a lot of ROCers who support it from saying so unless they are with people they're confortable in confiding.

I mean "supports Quebec Bill 21" = "racist" is the dominant frame of mind.

I think most non muslim ROCs don't know much about it. Over Easter visiting mostly Anglophone with a few Francophone Montrealers and it's a total taboo subject.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I think most non muslim ROCs don't know much about it. Over Easter visiting mostly Anglophone with a few Francophone Montrealers and it's a total taboo subject.

Sure, I'd agree that it's not top-of-mind for most ROCers. Though many probably have a vague idea that Quebec has this law that is mean (or worse) to Muslims, just as it has laws that are mean to anglos.

It all sort of fits into preconceived notions that people already have about Quebec.

And of course these days in Anglo-Canada being tolerant towards Muslims and concerned about them is the top litmus test for personal virtue.

So the timing is just perfect.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Thank you for bringing that up. I recall Marion Boyd was also involved. That was 20 years ago, so I wonder how things would play out today.

Yes for NDP MPP Marion Boyd was involved and she was pretty left-wing and an SJW type.

Here is a link to an article about it: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ontario-premier-rejects-use-of-shariah-law-1.523122

And here is an interesting quote from that article:

Ontario has allowed Catholic and Jewish faith-based tribunals to settle family law matters on a voluntary basis since 1991, but the practice got little attention until Muslim leaders demanded the same rights.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Yes for NDP MPP Marion Boyd was involved and she was pretty left-wing and an SJW type.

Here is a link to an article about it: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ontario-premier-rejects-use-of-shariah-law-1.523122

And here is an interesting quote from that article:

Ontario has allowed Catholic and Jewish faith-based tribunals to settle family law matters on a voluntary basis since 1991, but the practice got little attention until Muslim leaders demanded the same rights.

Interesting indeed how it would play out now. In English Canada at least we need to pretend modern Islam is no more incompatible with our basic values than Catholicism or Judaism.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

My point and the relevance to this thread is English Canada accepted her crazy idea that caused here to die because of deference to Indigenous beliefs. Quebec wouldn't have done that. McGuinty considered incorporating Sharia law into Ontario practices. Which is nuts and was only stopped by backlash. (Racist and rational). Quebec would never consider such a thing.

There is no implication in my post that Indigenous people don't believe in science or something.

Not much information is given to us to even let us know if it actually was a traditional Indigenous practice being applied to the child. But the media reported the death and it actually wasn't accepted in English speaking Canada and even in many First Nations. Nobody could really do anything is what the issue was. Indigenous issues involve the federal government and Indigenous children in regards to children's aid services fall under different rules. Today only Indigenous-based aid services can deal with Indigenous children and their families. I always thought that the child was going to die anyway and I never saw the medical files that may have said otherwise. It's not something that happens very often fortunately.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Interesting indeed how it would play out now. In English Canada at least we need to pretend modern Islam is no more incompatible with our basic values than Catholicism or Judaism.

It wouldn't play out any differently today. Now there are no religious-based family tribunal court things. They got rid of the Catholic and Jewish ones soon after it was decided that Sharia ones were not acceptable.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

It wouldn't play out any differently today. Now there are no religious-based family tribunal court things. They got rid of the Catholic and Jewish ones soon after it was decided that Sharia ones were not acceptable.

I'm sure you know what my view is on that.

It would be interesting to see how Ontario would manage public funding for Catholic schools if it became a political issue the public started caring about.

Would they abolish the Catholic school funding, or would they extend funding to schools of all religious groups?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I think most non muslim ROCs don't know much about it. Over Easter visiting mostly Anglophone with a few Francophone Montrealers and it's a total taboo subject.

Why would people discuss politics at Easter anyway?