Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

To be honest though, even with Trudeau's backpedaling on international students and immigration, the new targets (if the government follows through) is still higher than what it was pre-COVID, and much higher than the Harper years. Also, it's still higher than the targets that the Century Initiative is pedalling.

So politically it hasn't even reached the point of self-correcting yet, at most it's just scrapping off the excess cream that's dripping off.

Setting aside the excesses off the last few years, we probably did need higher immigration than the Harper years. Also, I've made the point before the Century Initiative target wasn't all that high. In 2015, it would have meant an average annual growth rate of 1.22% through to the end of the century. That would have a growth of 440k in 2016. So ballpark 550k in total immigrants in 2016. The Trudeau government has far exceeded any of this. And that's why we have problems.

And it's not just the numbers. It's composition. From giving seniors PR. To the faux students. A million immigrants per year would still be too much. But less problematic if they were studying trades, nursing, etc.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Trespassing is not a criminal offense?? What's your definition of a crime?

Things that are in the criminal code and you risk going to real prison for. Not the drunk tank. And trespassing is not a criminal offence in most cases. There's criminal trespass. That's a pretty rare and exceptional case.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I think you're playing with words here. I'm referring to "crime" as it is generally understood in English, i.e. anything that is called in French either "crime", or just "délit", or even just "contravention" ("délinquance" in general). I am not referring to crime as "only what is in the federal criminal code of Canada". That's playing with words and that's not what the average English speaker understands as "crime".

For a guy who is all about cultural differences, you really seem to struggling with understanding this one. Not everything you can get arrested for is a crime. Not under the law. And not culturally.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You ask that to people you know and are comfortable with. You don't ask that in a professional setting of a person speaking on behalf of their country. And if you do, the person on the receiving is going to assume you're a closet racist who cares more about their race than their work.

In a professional setting, no. It would not be professional.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

I wouldn't say it's that rare. Maybe not 15, but jamming 6-8 is even common in Hamilton and KW now outside of the GTA.

Definitely more common but it still wasn't unheard of 15 years ago. A journalist I used to know was doing an expose on illegal rooming houses in Scarborough that regularly housed 20+ people but it was ultimately nixed by a fairly major paper due to legal concerns.

Similarly it used to be very common in central Toronto to have rooming houses interspersed throughout neighbourhoods offering cheap but crowded conditions. Not just in the usual suspects like Parkdale but throughout more middle-class areas - I've lived beside a couple in the past which housed some unsavoury characters but were generally innocuous (prob the same type in encampments today but I digress...). These have largely disappeared - first for SFH conversions but increasingly for "market rate" (read: not cheap) apartments. It's been pushed out into mostly older suburbs where it's both illegal and the housing typology isn't nearly as suited for it.

I still think Brampton is in it's own class both due to the predominance of these living conditions and that they are targeted towards an almost singular demographic.

I guess to keep it on topic I have seen some pretty overcrowded apartments and punk houses in Montreal back in the day! But again, a very different situation than what's happening now.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Also, who gives a shit what you do in France? Not relevant to this thread.

Well, you surely do, for spitting your venom at us over pages.

I'm almost shocked by the respect Brisavoine still treats you with. Lol.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Well, you surely do, for spitting your venom at us over pages.

I'm almost shocked by the respect Brisavoine still treats you with. Lol.

You're free to find a site in France to discuss French policy. See. I can be just as xenophobic as the French.

I fail to see the relevance of the endless discussion of France in a a thread about Quebec, in a forum about Canada, on a website based in Canada. Some of us actually do want to learn more about Quebec (our neighbours) and don't really give a shit about France. Are you guys running out of places to discuss France in France or something?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Loco101

There is no view that opposing women wearing specific clothing is racist or wrong. That is just something made up by far-right people who actually do hate people who are different.

Sorry but have to disagree very strongly here my friend.

The reactions to Quebec Bill 21 in the ROC (near-unanimous in the political, academic and media classes) are almost hysterical at times.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

This is unconvincing... Seine-Saint-Denis is part of a metropolitan region (with easy access to anywhere thanks to one of the largest and cheapest public transportation systems in the world) that has virtually as many jobs as one can need. It's not like you're unemployed there because there are no jobs. In France the businesses lack hundreds of thousands of workers, as in the rest of France (a problem that is general to Europe).

Also, Seine-Saint-Denis has a GDP per capita that is higher than anything you can find in Canada. It's not the "poor place" it's often made to be in foreign countries (or even in France). In 2019 (last year before Covid), Seine-Saint-Denis had a GDP per capita of 75,781 USD. Québec had a GDP per capita of 40,853 USD in 2019. Ontario 46,195. Alberta 60,933.

So no, the problem is elsewhere. Seine-Saint-Denis has pockets of poverty (mitigated by the generous French social net) in the middle of a very rich territory with virtually full employment.

Seine-St-Denis is just a symbol. I know the entire departement is not made up of troubled cités.

And even a rich departement like the Yvelines in the west can have troubled towns like Trappes. And maybe Trappes has some nice areas within it despite its bad reputation.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sorry but have to disagree very strongly here my friend.

The reactions to Quebec Bill 21 in the ROC (near-unanimous in the political, academic and media classes) are almost hysterical at times.

Bill 21 clearly has xenophobic and racist motivations but also the actual text reflects fairly mainstream views that we need to limit dangerous ideologies in a secular society. The English Canada liberal obsession with anything that is a minority must be good is weird. Boomer liberals love to join Quebec in bashing Catholicism or Christianity but think it's fine to have a sweat lodge instead of chemotherapy in the name of Indigenous religious freedom.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by mousquet

^ That has nothing to do with Québec.

It is a French domestic issue exclusively.
When local politicians state that they want France to remain France, they actually mean that they're determined to cope Muslim fanatics and their bigotry, on their trip to lock up all women in the world in their kitchens.

Some hypocrites might call it racism, it's just common sense to us. Especially when 10% of the French population is Muslim and that there is a struggle among them.
Like moderates vs fanatics. Liberals vs Conservatives... Same crap as usual.

Just 2 days ago, an Afghan weirdo stabbed 2 Algerians on the most touristy spot of Bordeaux just because the 2 guys were drinking beer, wine or something, while Islam prohibits booze.
One of the 2 is dead, the other one seriously wounded at the hospital.
The cops had to shoot the Afghan dead because he wouldn't surrender.

Stories like this happen frequently in France today. Every single day, we have hundreds of aggressive acts involving Muslim bigotry.
People are sick of it at some point. Especially Muslims that moved here to be freed from their fanatics.

The bolded part is exactly why we want to remain a secular place -- to be a friendly haven for people fleeing the fanatical governments of their homelands.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Bill 21 clearly has xenophobic and racist motivations but also the actual text reflects fairly mainstream views that we need to limit dangerous ideologies in a secular society. The English Canada liberal obsession with anything that is a minority must be good is weird. Boomer liberals love to join Quebec in bashing Catholicism or Christianity but think it's fine to have a sweat lodge instead of chemotherapy in the name of Indigenous religious freedom.

At least you're honest.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Things that are in the criminal code and you risk going to real prison for.

Crime doesn't necessarily entail a risk of imprisonment. For example building a nuclear power plant in France without a permit from the French government (highly unlikely, I know) is a crime, with its own article in the criminal code, but the maximum punishment you can get for this crime is... a fine (a big fine).

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

And trespassing is not a criminal offence in most cases. There's criminal trespass. That's a pretty rare and exceptional case.

I see we're not talking the same language here. You're referring to Common Law, I'm referring to continental law. In continental law, trespassing is always a crime (or penal offense, "infraction pénale" in French).

In this thread I've always referred to criminal (or penal if you prefer) offenses in the large sense. Whether you squat someone's property, block a road, build a nuclear power plant without a permit, commit fraud, or kill someone, in all these cases the criminal (penal) judge will be in charge. The problem is if these judges from different parts of the country sentence the convicts to different punishments (within the range allowed by the criminal code or any other penal code). That was my whole point.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And even a rich departement like the Yvelines in the west can have troubled towns like Trappes. And maybe Trappes has some nice areas within it despite its bad reputation.

Never been to Trappes, other than the train station. I've been to Grigny however, 2nd poorest municipality in Greater Paris (poorest is Clichy-sous-Bois), 2nd poorest as in the median disposable income is the 2nd lowest of all municipalities in the suburbs of Paris, and frankly, it wasn't as bad as we had thought, they even had a rather nice old 18th century village part. We saw some Maghreban guys smoking weed inside a café in another part of Grigny, and didn't stay around. The "projects" just next to train station turned out to be rather pleasant (I had told my friend jokingly "can you run?", as it was nightfall, around 10pm in June, and we had to cross it to reach the station, but to our surprise it was mostly Black Africans leisurely sitting on chairs at the bottom of their towers and enjoying the fresh night, and talking like in their native villages).

Some of these projects, however, are infested with drug gangs, and this where problems are. There is one like that in Grigny, but we didn't go there. This is unfortunately a result of the failure of cannabis prohibition, which only creates problems, like alcohol prohibition in the US in the 1920s. It's odd how such a left-wing and permissive country as France can be so conservative when it comes to drugs. Is Québec also more conservative than the ROC when it comes to drugs?

[New Brisavoine]

They sing it in English. No French version?

https://twitter.com/yuanyi_z/status/1779146547667550641

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Eurostat (the EU's statistical agency): https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/databrowse...g=fr&category=reg.reg_eco10.reg_eco10gdp


That's because a vast amount of the French GDP per capita is diverted by the French state (via taxes and social contributions). We have the highest percentage of GDP being taxed away from people in the world, ahead of even Denmark. I think it was 53% of GDP that went into state and social security pockets last time I checked (i.e. you as an individual get only 47% of the GDP).

It appears the EuroStat link is for nominal GDP. When I set it to Euros per inhabitant, Seine-Saint Denis is registering at nominal GDP per capita of EUR 39,500. So at today's FX rate that's only around 42,000 USD which is nowhere near 75,700 USD. GDP per capita in Seine-Saint Denis is even lower than the department Marseille is in, which is what I'd expect.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Seine-St-Denis is just a symbol. I know the entire departement is not made up of troubled cités.

And even a rich departement like the Yvelines in the west can have troubled towns like Trappes. And maybe Trappes has some nice areas within it despite its bad reputation.

I was surprised how poorly Yvelines is doing in terms of nominal GDP per capita, given that it's buoyed by Versailles. Not much higher than Seine-Saint-Denis which is somewhat shocking. Neighbouring Haute-De-Seine is where the truly wealthy live in Ile-de-France, which is registering per capita GDP matching with Genève and Zurich.

[New Brisavoine]

^^Wow. Some misinterpretations there.

First, you're correct about the figure for Seine-Saint-Denis, I was too fast and looked at nominal total GDP instead of per capita. That being said, the per capita figure was 45,680 USD in 2019, again compared to 40,853 USD in Québec, 46,195 in Ontario, and 60,933 in Alberta. So certainly not an economic wasteland, and one of the highest GDP per capita in Europe. Especially considering (and that's where lies your misinterpretation) that many residents of Seine-Saint-Denis do not work in Seine-Saint-Denis (but they work in City of Paris, La Défense, etc). Seine-Saint-Denis is more of a residential area than a work area, so its GDP per capita is artificially deflated.

Same for Yvelines. It's largely residential, its residents work in City of Paris, La Défense, etc, so its GDP per capita is artificially deflated, like Seine-Saint-Denis.

For Hauts-de-Seine, it's the other way around, its GDP per capita is inflated due to the presence of La Défense and various other business areas in this department (Issy-les-Moulineaux, Rueil-Malmaison, etc).

Hauts-de-Seine and City of Paris are departments that receive lots of commuters, so their GDP per capita are artificially high. All other 6 departments of Greater Paris are residential areas that send commuters to City of Paris and Hauts-de-Seine, so their GDP per capita are artificially low.

Only the GDP per capita of the entire Paris Region is not affected by commuter flows.

But even if you keep in mind that the GDP per capita of Seine-Saint-Denis is artificially low due to high numbers of outcommuters, you have to admit it is nonetheless high. How many suburbs of Toronto would have a GDP per capita as high as Seine-Saint-Denis? Not many I believe.

PS: Seine-Saint-Denis has a higher GDP per capita than Bouches-du-Rhône. The 2021 figure is meaningless due to Covid and being preliminary figures. Only the figure form 2019 can be used (and 2023 when it is published).

[New Brisavoine]

PS: To remove the effect of commuter flows, you have to check incomes per capita (this is neutral in terms of commuter flows). I was checking on the Eurostat website, but they don't publish income per capita for NUTS-3 level anymore (which is the level of Seine-Saint-Denis as an administrative unit). They have them only for NUTS-2 (i.e. entire Paris Region). In any case, as I've said earlier, international comparisons of income per capita need to be treated carefully, as in the French case the income per capita looks rather "low" due to the high taxes and social security contributions. But if you have a net disposable income of 20,000 USD in Seine-Saint-Denis, and a net disposable income of 20,000 USD in Ohio, you're of course much more affluent in Seine-Saint-Denis than in Ohio, because healthcare is free, university is free, no need for a car or gasoline, public transportation is cheap (or even free for people with low incomes), etc.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

They sing it in English. No French version?

https://twitter.com/yuanyi_z/status/1779146547667550641

It's unsurprising that this gang would sing it only in English, but since it is Canada's official royal anthem it does have French lyrics. I've never heard them though.

[urbandreamer]

I'm looking into another road trip between Pembroke and Rouyn- Noranda and noticed the pockets of old Anglo villages around Shawville & Beachburg and a thought struck: do French-speaking English suddenly lose their identity? Do English-speaking Thai, Filipino, Pakistani, Chinese etc suddenly lose their identity?

My hunch: it's 2124 and everyone's speaking Punjabi in Canada. Yet the English and French Canadians will still be easily identified by their clothing, habits and social interactions.