Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

SoF is getting a 16km SkyTrain extension, and its opening before the end of the decade.

that is more SkyTrain then NoF is getting by the end of the decade. that is a great use of $$$ and i am glad it is happening in 1 go. it will even benefit the fraser valley people because they can hope on SkyTrain so much sooner. just adjust/create bus routes to take advantage of the terminus in langley.

My comment was in answer to yours of "wouldnt the resources be better spent on things like SkyTrain to UBC, SFU gondola, northshore, "purple" line, etc?" Those are all NoF projects.

Surrey - the second largest city in the region - is finally getting the Expo Line extension after decades of only having four stations. That's eight new stations (six in Surrey and two in Langley) which will bring up the number of Expo stations in Surrey (ten) to almost the same as in Van (nine). Then Van has Millennium and Canada Line stations as well.

I grew up SoF (and live in Burnaby now) so I can understand why people there are cranky. It feels like NoF (Van in particular) gets all the attention and services. I'm glad they're finally getting this extension and more RapidBus / BRT routes.

[Migrant_Coconut]

It's unfortunate that by virtue of the downtown core being in the NW quadrant of the metro, all of Surrey/Langley is considered the SE "corner" and planned accordingly.

Even so, SoF is already queued for a second SkyTrain expansion (Newton... eventually) and most of the new RapidBus and BRT lines, which is more than we can say for the other "corners" in Richmond/Coquitlam/West Van. So one could easily argue the opposite: that the current growth spurt is letting Surrey jump the queue.

[ssiguy]

The reason why West Coast Express commuter service has never been a success is because it is exactly that........a commuter service. It serves a very specific need, office workers getting to and from their jobs at peak hours.

Vancouver/Fraser Valley doesn't need a commuter service but rather a suburban rail service which is quite different. This is what Toronto is doing with it's massive GO Expansion program. It is improving commuter services to the way out suburbs {ie Hamilton/Kitchener/Barrie} running every half an hour all day/each way and the inner areas making up about 250km of track will get a Paris-like RER system with thru running trains all day/each way roughly every 7 minutes and it is nearly all grade separated................they are transforming their commuter service to a true rapid transit one at a fraction of the cost of building subways.

The further out you go, the lesser the return on investment you get made worse by the fact that your trip becomes so long that it takes the rapid out of rapid transit. The GO RER will be MUCH faster than taking the subway for equal length and a hell of a lot more comfortable which is a key consideration when creating more regional long distance transit. Can you imagine them eventually extending SkyTrain to Abbotsford?...............you would need hip surgery by the time you get to Vancouver.

Yes, Toronto has far more rail corridors than Vancouver and they get less freight traffic but the traffic use to be greater but GO slowly began to buy up the track starting over 20 years ago. It's a long process but one that Vancouver should be planning for. Vancouver has to start thinking regionally as it sprawls out to the Valley and you just can't keep extending the SkyTrain.

Vancouver needs regional, suburban rail and although expensive they should start with what Toronto did and slowly start buying up the track to allow for fast, frequent, and electrified service. They may not need it now but in 20 or 30 years they will thank God that they did it.

[Migrant_Coconut]

And in 20-30 years, we can think about it. Right now, only 1/3rd of 1/4th of the Valley's commuters would benefit from a billion-dollar WCE extension (and even less from a multi-billion train to nowhere)... while half a million Vancouverites need SkyTrain expansion yesterday.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The reason why West Coast Express commuter service has never been a success is because it is exactly that........a commuter service. It serves a very specific need, office workers getting to and from their jobs at peak hours.

Vancouver/Fraser Valley doesn't need a commuter service but rather a suburban rail service which is quite different. This is what Toronto is doing with it's massive GO Expansion program. It is improving commuter services to the way out suburbs {ie Hamilton/Kitchener/Barrie} running every half an hour all day/each way and the inner areas making up about 250km of track will get a Paris-like RER system with thru running trains all day/each way roughly every 7 minutes and it is nearly all grade separated................they are transforming their commuter service to a true rapid transit one at a fraction of the cost of building subways.

The further out you go, the lesser the return on investment you get made worse by the fact that your trip becomes so long that it takes the rapid out of rapid transit. The GO RER will be MUCH faster than taking the subway for equal length and a hell of a lot more comfortable which is a key consideration when creating more regional long distance transit. Can you imagine them eventually extending SkyTrain to Abbotsford?...............you would need hip surgery by the time you get to Vancouver.

Yes, Toronto has far more rail corridors than Vancouver and they get less freight traffic but the traffic use to be greater but GO slowly began to buy up the track starting over 20 years ago. It's a long process but one that Vancouver should be planning for. Vancouver has to start thinking regionally as it sprawls out to the Valley and you just can't keep extending the SkyTrain.

Vancouver needs regional, suburban rail and although expensive they should start with what Toronto did and slowly start buying up the track to allow for fast, frequent, and electrified service. They may not need it now but in 20 or 30 years they will thank God that they did it.

Maybe somebody ought to be 'thinking regionally' and looking at ways to extend rail to the Valley (although so far none of the ideas have made any sort of transportation or economic sense) - but it shouldn't be Metro Vancouver. They have to concentrate on trying to get the financial resources together to build the badly needed, and unfunded transit changes within the TransLink boundaries.

It's great that in Toronto there were rail lines that could be bought. The only one that's come up for sale here was the Arbutus Line - and the City of Vancouver bought it (for future transportation, and/or a greenway). If anything else comes up for sale, be sure to let us know.

[Migrant_Coconut]

On top of that, Toronto's freight lines get people where they want to go. Vancouver's lines do not.

[mattropolis]

Vancouver needs regional, suburban rail and although expensive they should start with what Toronto did and slowly start buying up the track to allow for fast, frequent, and electrified service. They may not need it now but in 20 or 30 years they will thank God that they did it.

The time to start acting on a regional rail system is now, not in 20-30 years. Actually it was 20-30 years ago!

A west coast extension to Abbotsford is a good first step, but it must be done in conjunction with a holistic plan for other services including fast trains to Seattle, long distance services, SkyTrain lines, buses and local transit. Too often

While the old interurban line could be used in parts, I think the Hwy 1 median or corridor is a better place for a south of Fraser regional railway. Hydro line corridors are another option and should be studied.

[ssiguy]

I am not implying that Vancouver shouldn't go ahead with it's much needed SkyTrain and BRT extensions. They are a necessity for urban dwellers.

The issue is that Vancouver has no regional service. Those people clogging up the freeways are not going a couple of km but many and to all different areas of Metro/FV and right now they really don't have any options but to drive. That is the whole point of suburban rail............it connects longer distance destinations. It also has the benefit of helping to get people onto a much faster and comfortable transit service than having to pack everyone on to SkyTrain.

Vancouver's sprawl is endless, and it will continue to sprawl as people and businesses continue to leave Vancouver in search of more affordable housing. Many of Toronto GO lines have been quad tracked and overpasses built but still allow for freight as long as the tracks are physically separated from the passenger rail ones. Tokyo has this all over the place in it's suburban rail systems.

The reason HWY#1 is congested sometimes all the way to Chilliwack and WAY before it hits Langley is due to incredibly incompetent highway planning but also due to the fact that these people have no options even to get to the large employers in Surrey. Equally important is that suburban, as opposed to commuter rail, runs all day each way to serve people who may be commuting to the Valley while living inner Metro or those who have multiple jobs.

The time to do this is now because in 30 years it maybe too late as people choose to live in far flung suburbs where there is no viable transit at all and suburban rail helps build TOD. The rest of the world is realizing that ever expanding subways is not financially viable and are instead building up their suburban rail systems to serve regional travel at a fraction of the cost............it's a policy that Vancouver desperately needs to learn.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The rest of the world is realizing that ever expanding subways is not financially viable and are instead building up their suburban rail systems to serve regional travel at a fraction of the cost............it's a policy that Vancouver desperately needs to learn.

I don't disagree with the general idea of your post, but where is your support for this claim???

Toronto, perhaps the city in the western hemisphere doing the most to expand/improve its suburban rail system, is building the Ontario and Eglinton Crosstown lines while extending its existing subways.

Los Angeles, which has a aspirational Metrolink regional rail plan, is also building several subway/LRT lines and has plans for even more.

Istanbul, perhaps the world's best example of cost effective rail transit expansion over the past few decades, is putting most of its weight, save for the Marmaray, behind new and expanded subways.

NYC is building the SAS, the Tube is extending the Bakerloo line, and Tokyo is planning a whole new line, as is Seoul.

"The rest of the world" (what does this even mean?) is building subways as enthusiastically as ever. The world outside of North America is maybe doing so more cost effectively. I suppose the one thing you could say is North American cities (Chicago, Toronto, LA, San Fran, Boston, etc.) are finally coming around on the idea of regional rail akin to Europe and Asia instead of just running peak period commuter rail.

[Migrant_Coconut]

And so WCE to Abbotsford will likely become a thing (once Abbotsford joins TransLink); it's low-cost, low-reward.
The interurban won't, because you could spend an entire Ontario Line's worth of funding on it, and it won't change the fact that nobody in the Valley wants to waste half an hour each way detouring to Huntingdon.

Meanwhile, the metro's streets are just as clogged as the TCH, and have much higher demand than 22,030 drivers and 3,900 potential train passengers. The Langley Expo extension alone is set to carry over 3x as many people as that, and even that one took the better part of a decade to get off the ground.

In other words, until the Valley comes up with a proper commuter line that actual gets value for its money, the Province needs to be more resourceful with what little money we have, and will so put SkyTrain first.

Originally Posted by ssiguy

... The time to do this is now because in 30 years it maybe too late as people choose to live in far flung suburbs where there is no viable transit at all and suburban rail helps build TOD. The rest of the world is realizing that ever expanding subways is not financially viable and are instead building up their suburban rail systems to serve regional travel at a fraction of the cost............it's a policy that Vancouver desperately needs to learn.

Funny, it's the opposite in Montreal, Toronto, LA and Melbourne (among others)... where the suburban rail is being built (or rebuilt with grade separations) to act more like a metro.

Abbotsford could build TOD - or at least a decent bus grid - right this minute. 2/3rds of all their commutes are inside the city. Change needs to come from within, or from actual, usable transit - not a crappy tourist train.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

In other words, until the Valley comes up with a proper commuter line that actual gets value for its money, the Province needs to be more resourceful with what little money we have, and will so put SkyTrain first.

In the meantime, I think all major roadway projects should be completed while making provisions for transit, if appropriate.

For example, for TCH widening projects, please leave enough room for rail down the median in the future. Otherwise, we can kiss goodbye to rail transport akin to the affordable-ish Brightline projects in Florida and California. Or for the 72 Ave extension in Surrey, consider locating utilities where they won't have to be moved if the corridor ever gets BRT, Skytrain, streetcar, or other major transit improvements.

This type of forward thinking may not cost anything now, but it can save millions a few decades down the road.

[ssiguy]

Yes, Toronto is undergoing the largest transit expansion in all of the America's and God knows it's needed and much is local urban transit........subways, LRT, and BRT. GO expansion, however, is totally different system.

It is designed to move hundreds of thousands, and potentially millions, of people where slow, urban transit simply isn't optional lest someone wants to spend 2 hours getting to the destination every day. Suburban transit offers frequent all day service for longer trips with more comfortable trains going much faster with fewer station.........they can more than compete with driving. Suburb to suburb transit commuting is increasingly how people are commuting and even shopping/entertainment etc and suburban rail makes this new commuting pattern a true option.

Of course, expand the urban transit network which Vancouver is doing but by omitting suburban and regional transit means that cars will INCREASINGLY be clogging our roads and no one can blame them because often their only realistic alternative is to stay home. Vancouver, like all cities, can't afford to do everything at once but Vancouver can plan ahead by securing current corridors. This is what Toronto did with GO, the service was somewhat limited 25 years ago with only a couple hundred train trips per week but that will mushroom to over 12,000 by 2030 and the only reason they can do it is because they had the forethought of securing the vital rail corridors decades ago. In order for a transportation system to be effective now and in the future is to build/expand today while planning for decades from now.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Yes, Toronto is undergoing the largest transit expansion in all of the America's and God knows it's needed and much is local urban transit........subways, LRT, and BRT. GO expansion, however, is totally different system.

It is designed to move hundreds of thousands, and potentially millions, of people where slow, urban transit simply isn't optional lest someone wants to spend 2 hours getting to the destination every day. Suburban transit offers frequent all day service for longer trips with more comfortable trains going much faster with fewer station.........they can more than compete with driving. Suburb to suburb transit commuting is increasingly how people are commuting and even shopping/entertainment etc and suburban rail makes this new commuting pattern a true option.

Of course, expand the urban transit network which Vancouver is doing but by omitting suburban and regional transit means that cars will INCREASINGLY be clogging our roads and no one can blame them because often their only realistic alternative is to stay home. Vancouver, like all cities, can't afford to do everything at once but Vancouver can plan ahead by securing current corridors. This is what Toronto did with GO, the service was somewhat limited 25 years ago with only a couple hundred train trips per week but that will mushroom to over 12,000 by 2030 and the only reason they can do it is because they had the forethought of securing the vital rail corridors decades ago. In order for a transportation system to be effective now and in the future is to build/expand today while planning for decades from now.

What do you mean? The rail tracks are in use, (in the wrong place to run suburban rail) so they're secure. The median of the highway is in place, so that's secure.

Who knows how long it will be before a system is justified in the Valley designed to move 'nundreds of thousands, if not millions'? Mission, and Abbotsford, and Chilliwack only added 24,500 people from 2016 to 2021, while just the City of Vancouver added over 30,000 and Surrey over 50,000 - and those are both waiting for funding for SkyTrain extensions.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Expo Line: 288k daily riders
Canada Line: 148k daily riders

Lakeshore West (Toronto): 33k/day
WCE (Vancouver): 5.6k/day, down from 10.4k

Interurban to Chilliwack: ... 3.9k/day

Needless to say, "hundreds of thousands" isn't happening any time soon in the Valley ("millions" will have to wait another century); the Langley extension alone will remove several times as many cars from the roads.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

And so WCE to Abbotsford will likely become a thing (once Abbotsford joins TransLink); it's low-cost, low-reward.

Just a small comment from the peanut gallery here; Mission has WCE service even though it's not part of Translink. There isn't necessarily a need for Abbotsford to join Translink to have WCE service.

[Migrant_Coconut]

They may not be in the club, but Mission is paying membership fees - I don't recall Abbotsford even making an offer for that (yet).

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

They may not be in the club, but Mission is paying membership fees - I don't recall Abbotsford even making an offer for that (yet).

Absolutely, just being a nit picker. Abbotsford doesn't necessarily have to build up the Translink apparatus for WCE service, they just have to pay for it.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Maybe somebody ought to be 'thinking regionally' and looking at ways to extend rail to the Valley (although so far none of the ideas have made any sort of transportation or economic sense) - but it shouldn't be Metro Vancouver. They have to concentrate on trying to get the financial resources together to build the badly needed, and unfunded transit changes within the TransLink boundaries.

It's great that in Toronto there were rail lines that could be bought. The only one that's come up for sale here was the Arbutus Line - and the City of Vancouver bought it (for future transportation, and/or a greenway). If anything else comes up for sale, be sure to let us know.

Our municipalities here are lightning quick to develop over or repurpose abandoned spurs, shortlines or branch lines here. Vancouver has essentially severed it's Southern False Creek rail line. The Arbutus Corridor will never see rails. Any hopes for a Bridgeport to Steveston LRT are gone.

The only option we have here is massive tunnel projects.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Our municipalities here are lightning quick to develop over or repurpose abandoned spurs, shortlines or branch lines here. Vancouver has essentially severed it's Southern False Creek rail line. The Arbutus Corridor will never see rails. Any hopes for a Bridgeport to Steveston LRT are gone.

The only option we have here is massive tunnel projects.

Thank you, that is an interesting take on it all. It got me thinking, though 'if all we have left are massive tunnel projects, could they not all be designed with rail lines as a component?' Kill two birds with one stone?

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Thank you, that is an interesting take on it all. It got me thinking, though 'if all we have left are massive tunnel projects, could they not all be designed with rail lines as a component?' Kill two birds with one stone?

An excellent idea but one Vancouver will not entertain because they don't think regionally. Not having effective regional transit, especially in a hyper expensive city like Vancouver, causes very measurable economic issues primarily being labour mobility.

Vancouver employees constantly bitch about the lack of labour but even if Vancouver had lots of labour, a lack of fast and effective transit options means even qualified people who may want that job won't take it due to the commuting times. Don't take my word for it, just look at N.Van and the massive issue they have of getting workers in construction, retail, and education. They can't get workers because only the uber wealthy can live there and yet, for the majority of workers, the Iron Workers is the only option. Even getting from Metrotown to the NS can be hell on Earth whether you drive or take transit.

All of Metro is expensive which is why the Fraser Valley is seeing huge population increases. You have people working in Surrey coming from the Valley but they have to drive as there is no viable option. You can't keep bitching at drivers and telling them to take transit when there isn't any.