Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[mcj]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Reece Martin's newest blog entry.

Some great constructive criticism of the MVX plan. It really doesn't make much sense outside of the Vancouver - Surrey - Abbotsford corridor. We don't even have a proper regional bus system, and he's on point for suggesting this for the Sea to Sky corridor. Demand on which should be the basis for any investments in rail.

Anecdotal, I had a friend visit recently, he went to the interior to go skiing during his time here, did this via bus service to Kamloops from Surrey. A bus service that picks you up in a gas station/mall parking lot with no signage (you just need to guess by the hoard of people standing around a couple coaches at the north end of Guildford mall) and drops you at a gas station/mall parking lot on the other end. We can do better than this.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Came up a few pages ago - my guess, it dies in the Senate.

Doubt it even makes it out of the house.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Doubt it even makes it out of the house.

Agreed. It’s a private member’s bill, and those rarely get support from the house.

[mcj]

Dailyhive got their hands on a study the Province did on Fraser Valley rail options

Option 1 is extending the WCE to Abbotsford (IMO, very practical and should be done ASAP).



Option 2 is creating a multiple unit route from Langley Centre to Abbotsford through the Page Subdivision.



Option 3 would extend that multiple unit route to Chilliwack.

[officedweller]

I wish the maps were in colour!
I can't tell if on Option 2 the Mission to Abbotsford segment is WCE or Regional Rail (DMU).

PS - for those who haven't read the story yet, it says that the busy Page Subdivision (with Roberts Bank trains) would be double tracked.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by mcj

...Option 2 is creating a multiple unit route from Langley Centre to Abbotsford through the Page Subdivision...

... Option 3 would extend that multiple unit route to Chilliwack...

I'll take "things which won't and shouldn't happen" for $100, Alex.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I'll take "things which won't and shouldn't happen" for $100, Alex.

Yeah it being economically unjustifiable is likely why this was not publicly released at the time. Option 1 with the WCE extension to Abbotsford makes some sense though. Could actually split at the junction with the CN mainline and service Chilliwack as well with a couple trains, would be a shorter route than through Sumas prairie. That's with the massive caveat that CN would approve of this, and the acknowledgement that railways in Canada are such an underbuilt joke that the CN mainline is single tracked around Sumas mountain.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by mcj

Option 1 with the WCE extension to Abbotsford makes some sense though. Could actually split at the junction with the CN mainline and service Chilliwack as well with a couple trains, would be a shorter route than through Sumas prairie...

Maybe. Keep in mind that about two-thirds of the Valley's commuters are headed west to Surrey, Langley, Richmond or Delta (page 9)"]page 9[/URL]); by contrast, the WCE-aligned munis make up barely a quarter of all demand (less than 6k). Abbotsford is fairly low-cost, low reward, so it could happen, but the law of diminishing returns probably kills Chilliwack.

I'm a little surprised the infamous "REM down the Highway 1 median" option wasn't looked at, if we're going to be studying service for Huntingdon and Sardis.

[madog222]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I wish the maps were in colour!
I can't tell if on Option 2 the Mission to Abbotsford segment is WCE or Regional Rail (DMU).

It sounds like it’s regional rail.

[trofirhen]

IMHO, the first proposal is too skimpy; there just isn't enough. The second proposal is a bit more elaborate, but I prefer the third one, simply because places like Sardis and Chilliwack will be solid commuter belt in the decades to come. / I noticed that in the second and third options, the lower branch west, it stops at Langley, presumably to change to the SE part of the Expo Line. Will the Expo Lines trains be capacious / frequent enough to handle rush hour traffic? Would it require some sort of redesign? Is it worth considering, in the second and third options, extending the track to the central city, be it Waterfront or Pacific Central? Just ideas that came up. Thank you for your time.

[Sheba]

Reading through the whole article I came across this:

Regional rail is a different kind of rail public transit mode. Unlike commuter rail, such as West Coast Express, regional rail does not use heavy-rail locomotives and bi-level passenger cars, and instead uses a more adaptable and flexible multiple-unit train system that can be coupled together to form train sets, with double-ended driver cabs enabling bi-directional travel.

Such regional rail trains typically have maximum design speeds of between 100 km/hr and 145 km/hr, with improved acceleration and deceleration compared to heavy-rail commuter rail trains. While this is the train vehicle’s maximum design speed, the actual operating speed depends on the design and condition of the railway tracks.

The study assumes the average speed range for both regional rail options to be between 50 km/hr and 65 km/hr, including acceleration and deceleration. This is also after capital costs of $15 million to $22 million per km for rail infrastructure, stations, and other corridor improvements.

Aside from train typology, in terms of actual service levels, regional rail is generally an all-day service, running more frequently than commuter rail, with frequencies of generally at least one train per hour outside peak periods and higher frequencies during peak periods.

...

Both regional rail concepts would begin within Langley City Centre, with passengers connecting to SkyTrain’s future Expo Line extension at either Willowbrook Station (on 196th Street) or the terminus station of Langley City Centre Station (on 203rd Street). Interchange hub connections would be established between the SkyTrain and regional rail stations.

Also this is Option 3 - the above image shows all the options

[logicbomb]

Dealing with CP/CN rail sucks. This, along with WCE improvements will never happen.

The answer is incredibly straight forward but very expensive. A full ROW down Hwy 1.

Maybe use the soon to be abandoned CN spur in North Richmond or the abandoned CP Marpole Spur to continue passenger service to YVR.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by mcj

Dailyhive got their hands on a study the Province did on Fraser Valley rail options

Option 1 is extending the WCE to Abbotsford (IMO, very practical and should be done ASAP).



Option 2 is creating a multiple unit route from Langley Centre to Abbotsford through the Page Subdivision.



Option 3 would extend that multiple unit route to Chilliwack.

Yup! Exactly like how I envision it. Let's get it built!

For the extension to Abbotsford Centre, why not build a bit more to reach the airport too?

[Migrant_Coconut]

If it was studied three years ago and didn't go public until the FOI request, it's safe to say the province isn't considering anything close to this turd sandwich.

Originally Posted by logicbomb

The answer is incredibly straight forward but very expensive. A full ROW down Hwy 1.

Bingo. Just need to wait for all the SkyTrains to stop hogging the funding (2060-70?), and then elevate it all the way to Chilliwack.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Dealing with CP/CN rail sucks. This, along with WCE improvements will never happen.

The answer is incredibly straight forward but very expensive. A full ROW down Hwy 1.

Maybe use the soon to be abandoned CN spur in North Richmond or the abandoned CP Marpole Spur to continue passenger service to YVR.

A few more blurbs from the article:

This study, released through a freedom of information request, identified three potential concepts that optimize the use of existing railway corridors and infrastructure to lower construction costs compared to establishing a new railway right-of-way, which would involve buying significant property. The study specifically focused on the area between eastern Metro Vancouver — Langley City and Langley Township — and the Fraser Valley as far east as Chilliwack.

...

Upon inquiry, the BC Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure told Daily Hive Urbanized this study supports the ongoing broader work of the Fraser Valley Integrated Regional Transportation Planning, which was launched by the provincial government in 2020.

“The rail study concluded in late summer 2021 and identified potential future benefits of a regional passenger rail concept,” the Ministry told Daily Hive Urbanized.

Also

The eastern Metro Vancouver to Fraser Valley corridor between Surrey and Chilliwack is forecast to see a population increase of over 50% to 1.2 million people by 2050, including a growth from 320,000 in 2019 to over 500,000 within the Fraser Valley, with Abbotsford, Chilliwack, and Abbotsford driving the Fraser Valley’s portion of such growth.

Additionally, the Fraser Valley is expected to see 100,000 more jobs by 2050.

Currently, according to the study, 75% to 90% of trips conducted by individuals in automobiles stay within the Fraser Valley, and most remain within their municipality of origin. For those leaving their municipalities, the top destinations include Langley, Abbotsford, and Chilliwack.

Major/emerging urban centres within eastern Metro Vancouver and the Fraser Valley. (Government of BC)

So this is strictly about connecting SoF to the Fraser Valley, along with providing some public transit to the Fraser Valley (as opposed to the Flying Spaghetti Monster routes they have now). I don't know the area well enough to know if any of it's a good idea or not - although I'm inclined to lean towards not.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

is it even worth the $$$ to expand the WCE? it sees an average of 5,600 riders/week day as of 2023. even pre-pandemic it was only seeing a little over double that. i dont remember hearing it running at capacity either. and now that work has shifted away from office work, i dont see ridership increasing.

wouldnt the resources be better spent on things like SkyTrain to UBC, SFU gondola, northshore, "purple" line, etc? those project would see way more user benefit for people outside of just commuting into and out of the city.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

is it even worth the $$$ to expand the WCE? it sees an average of 5,600 riders/week day as of 2023. even pre-pandemic it was only seeing a little over double that. i dont remember hearing it running at capacity either. and now that work has shifted away from office work, i dont see ridership increasing...

Worse than that - last time they studied Rail for the Valley (TM), they ended up with 3,900 riders from Surrey to Chilliwack, pre-pandemic. The express bus option got an even 4k.

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

... wouldnt the resources be better spent on things like SkyTrain to UBC, SFU gondola, northshore, "purple" line, etc? those project would see way more user benefit for people outside of just commuting into and out of the city.

Best of luck - the answer is always "wE ShOuLd Do AlL oF tHeM aT oNcE." It's like all of Vancouver got collective amnesia and forgot that Broadway and Langley took fifteen years, three governments, ~$7 billion and a lot of tooth-pulling, so maybe we shouldn't waste the current momentum on harebrained projects.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

wouldnt the resources be better spent on things like SkyTrain to UBC, SFU gondola, northshore, "purple" line, etc? those project would see way more user benefit for people outside of just commuting into and out of the city.

Resources are being spent on those things - and they're all NoF. This is future studying for the SoF, in this case connecting it to the Fraser Valley.

[Migrant_Coconut]

I'll risk being a broken record and point out that an REM down the TCH median would be more expensive, but a much better use of money for connecting the Valley. Sure would like to see the study for that one.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Worse than that - last time they studied Rail for the Valley (TM), they ended up with 3,900 riders from Surrey to Chilliwack, pre-pandemic. The express bus option got an even 4k.

eek. thats worse than i expected. even more reason to just stop with these ideas and focus on what will truly help the city grow and function better.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Best of luck - the answer is always "wE ShOuLd Do AlL oF tHeM aT oNcE." It's like all of Vancouver got collective amnesia and forgot that Broadway and Langley took fifteen years, three governments, ~$7 billion and a lot of tooth-pulling, so maybe we shouldn't waste the current momentum on harebrained projects.

people think money just grows on trees i guess. i dont even know what to tell people. its like they just either dont think, or just live in some fantasy land of everything can be done all the time? its weird.

we need to fund projects that will give the most amount of benefit to the most amount of people. itd be great to do everything. but this is the real world.

Originally Posted by Sheba

Resources are being spent on those things - and they're all NoF. This is future studying for the SoF, in this case connecting it to the Fraser Valley.

SoF is getting a 16km SkyTrain extension, and its opening before the end of the decade.

that is more SkyTrain then NoF is getting by the end of the decade. that is a great use of $$$ and i am glad it is happening in 1 go. it will even benefit the fraser valley people because they can hope on SkyTrain so much sooner. just adjust/create bus routes to take advantage of the terminus in langley.