Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Kind of. Assuming you want the passenger train to run at a speed that is it even close to being competitive with driving, having a single passenger train, is equivalent to having multiple freight trains from a scheduling perspective.

Freight trains aren't used to transport time-sensitive cargo, while all cargo (humans) on a passenger train are time-sensitive.

My point is, a freight train can pull onto a siding a few times in a trip, adding three or four hours to its journey, without forcing all of its cargo onto planes or private vehicles. The same cannot be said for passenger trains.

[trofirhen]

Maybe I'm just dreaming or being too unrealistic/extravagant, but looking into the future, I think that commuter rail in metro Vancouver should - if at all feasible - build ROWs specifically for commuter trains, both on the current WCE line, and on a major, central line heading through Surrey and out into the Valley, to future serve places like Cloverdale, on out to Abbotsford, (and hopefully, to Chilliwack). One day these will be bedroom communities of Vancouver, in addition to centres in their own right. Delaying doing so means increasing $$cost, and facing more complicated land use issues and disputes. Its sometimes difficult to get our heads around what a large metro are Vancouver will become over the next thirty years. Proactively planning and preparing major transportation infrastructure for the future is essential, I rather think.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Freight trains aren't used to transport time-sensitive cargo, while all cargo (humans) on a passenger train are time-sensitive.

My point is, a freight train can pull onto a siding a few times in a trip, adding three or four hours to its journey, without forcing all of its cargo onto planes or private vehicles. The same cannot be said for passenger trains.

Freight is time sensitive or else people would also switch to trucks. And I doubt your system works except in a scenario where's like barely any traffic on the rail line.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Maybe I'm just dreaming or being too unrealistic/extravagant, but looking into the future, I think that commuter rail in metro Vancouver should - if at all feasible - build ROWs specifically for commuter trains, both on the current WCE line, and on a major, central line heading through Surrey and out into the Valley, to future serve places like Cloverdale, on out to Abbotsford, (and hopefully, to Chilliwack).

Cloverdale will benefit from the Expo extension down Fraser Hwy. Maybe some day there will be commuter rail from Abbotsford to connect to it but beyond that you're getting into Fraser Valley / BC Transit territory.

Also twinning the WCE. Where exactly do we put the rails - over water? If it was possible I'm sure that would have already been done. I've looked at maps and pondered adding rail ROWs but most of what I see is them being replaced with bike / pedestrian greenways.

We've been over this many times on the Transit Fantasies thread.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Cloverdale will benefit from the Expo extension down Fraser Hwy. Maybe some day there will be commuter rail from Abbotsford to connect to it but beyond that you're getting into Fraser Valley / BC Transit territory.

Also twinning the WCE. Where exactly do we put the rails - over water? If it was possible I'm sure that would have already been done. I've looked at maps and pondered adding rail ROWs but most of what I see is them being replaced with bike / pedestrian greenways.

Don't forget the price. The time for adding new ROWs all over the place regardless of cost/benefit was 50+ years ago when infrastructure was cheap - now that it's not, we need to make every billion $$ count, and that means no Abbotsford ahead of Hastings, the North Shore, 41st or Newton.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Don't forget the price. The time for adding new ROWs all over the place regardless of cost/benefit was 50+ years ago when infrastructure was cheap - now that it's not, we need to make every billion $$ count, and that means no Abbotsford ahead of Hastings, the North Shore, 41st or Newton.

Hence "some day". As much as certain people want the Fraser Valley to be hooked into TransLink via some sort of train, there's way more demand to move around within Metro Van.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

Freight is time sensitive or else people would also switch to trucks. And I doubt your system works except in a scenario where's like barely any traffic on the rail line.

I think you have it backwards - time-sensitive (and/or low-value) freight is put on trucks and planes while trains or and boats handle less time-sensitive goods.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I think you have it backwards - time-sensitive (and/or low-value) freight is put on trucks and planes while trains or and boats handle less time-sensitive goods.

Yeah, planes ship lobsters and tulips; trucks ship potatoes and pigs; and trains ship bituminous coal and electronics.

I don't think it's a huge problem if the Ikea furniture or sulphur shipment isn't exactly on time.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Freight trains aren't used to transport time-sensitive cargo, while all cargo (humans) on a passenger train are time-sensitive.

My point is, a freight train can pull onto a siding a few times in a trip, adding three or four hours to its journey, without forcing all of its cargo onto planes or private vehicles. The same cannot be said for passenger trains.

It’s not about time but capacity. The freight train can only pull into a siding if there is a siding (long enough for the train) somewhere near where the passenger train needs to pass it. Otherwise they need to find a big hole in the schedule where there are no freight trains on the tracks to let the fast train through unimpeded. The problem is only compounded if it is single track, and they have to cancel trains in both directions.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I think you have it backwards - time-sensitive (and/or low-value) freight is put on trucks and planes while trains or and boats handle less time-sensitive goods.

But all those delays add up and will lower their capacity which will impact the amount of products that can be delivered.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

But all those delays add up and will lower their capacity which will impact the amount of products that can be delivered.

The extent of "all those delays" really depends on what part of Canada we're talking about.

If freight trains are trying to mix with GO traffic in the GTA, that wouldn't go well. There's a reason why GO owns the rails for most of its busiest routes.

Meanwhile between Mission and the Canadian Shield there are three passenger trains per week, per direction that mix on freight tracks. All of those trains could be given track priority, and the delays across CN's network would be miniscule.

Between Vancouver and Mission there are three trains per day, per direction on week days. Even if the WCE was upgraded to hourly service in each direction (which won't happen in the foreseeable future) I find it hard to believe the CPR couldn't schedule the four to six trains that arrive at East L Yard every day around that.

[Changing City]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

The extent of "all those delays" really depends on what part of Canada we're talking about.

If freight trains are trying to mix with GO traffic in the GTA, that wouldn't go well. There's a reason why GO owns the rails for most of its busiest routes.

Meanwhile between Mission and the Canadian Shield there are three passenger trains per week, per direction that mix on freight tracks. All of those trains could be given track priority, and the delays across CN's network would be miniscule.

Between Vancouver and Mission there are three trains per day, per direction on week days. Even if the WCE was upgraded to hourly service in each direction (which won't happen in the foreseeable future) I find it hard to believe the CPR couldn't schedule the four to six trains that arrive at East L Yard every day around that.

Well, we're talking about passenger trains mixing with freight on freight companies tracks in the Lower Mainland. The only way that passenger trains might be given any sort of priority would be if there was legislation that forced the freight business to do so. Even then it might not help. I was on the Cascades from Seattle last week - running late, as the Portland to Seattle section was a bus link, as mudslides washed out the tracks in Washington.

We should have been into Vancouver soon after 10.00, but the conductor warned us that there were freight trains ahead, so it would probably be 11.15. We reached Boundary Road at 11.05, so it was looking like he was about right. Then we sat for 3 hours, as a train ahead of us was being broken up and shunted into the sidings. The despatcher refused to speak to the Amtrak crew. Amtrak officials couldn't get a reply, or any help, from the Canadian freight operators. The train crew handed out free water and snacks. We eventually arrived at 2.15am. Fortunately CBSA were still fully staffed, and welcoming (despite also having to wait 3 hours), and there were still cabs outside willing to drive passengers for the price on the meter). The last Cascades I took was also delayed over two hours, in New Westminster, because a freight engine failed ahead, and had to be towed by another engine, (which they took over an hour to find).

Dedicated passenger tracks are the only way to guarantee on-time service, and the level of demand for passenger trains is far too small to justify that expense, (as a current priority) even if the space existed to provide those tracks (which isn't the case without some very expensive engineering).

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Changing City

Well, we're talking about passenger trains mixing with freight on freight companies tracks in the Lower Mainland. The only way that passenger trains might be given any sort of priority would be if there was legislation that forced the freight business to do so.

And in the Lower Mainland we have two Cascades per day, three or four Canadians per week, and a smattering of Rocky Mountaineers in the summertime.

There should absolutely be federal legislation to prioritize passenger trains, if only because the impact on freight given the passenger train volumes across Canada would be nominal but improving the on-time performance of passenger trains would make them more competitive as a transportation option.

...

I took the Cascades in July to the Blue Jays game. The trip down was smooth sailing, and faster than driving given the border delays and highway congestion with all the Jays' fans and Swifties heading south.

The trip back was also pretty smooth. We had a slight delay at the border but the real kicker was getting within one kilometre of PCS and then having to sit and wait while CN was messing around with its yard.

[FarmerHaight]

Reece Martin's newest blog entry.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Reece Martin's newest blog entry.

I have been involved in some planning work the last year and a half. The one issue plaguing city engineers and planners is the complete lack of space to develop ROW's in the region. We have completely built out and there's just zero room within city proper's in Metro Vancouver now to build any new ROW's for roads. Demolishing neighborhoods is not a practical option due to the costs involved and public perception. You also have to factor in the first nations groups in these decisions. There's just a crazy amount of red tape to even put in new feeder roads in cities.

So your realistic options are completely tunneling under city centers along with rivers which would cost an insane amount.

It would have been a wise regional goal to preserve ROW's in the Fraser Valley but we are even sprawling out and building permanent structures there.

On a related note, it's insane how we have an abandoned ROW that runs from Marpole to New West that's not even under consideration for transit (Translink is not interested in the corridor). Same thing in Richmond, where we could easily connect Bridgeport Stn to East Richmond/Queensborough. Traffic has plummeted along that line and CN is looking to finally punch through a new rail ROW through South Richmond to abandon that northern line that goes down to Ironwood (via Shell).

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

I have been involved in some planning work the last year and a half. The one issue plaguing city engineers and planners is the complete lack of space to develop ROW's in the region. We have completely built out and there's just zero room within city proper's in Metro Vancouver now to build any new ROW's for roads. Demolishing neighborhoods is not a practical option due to the costs involved and public perception. You also have to factor in the first nations groups in these decisions. There's just a crazy amount of red tape to even put in new feeder roads in cities.

So your realistic options are completely tunneling under city centers along with rivers which would cost an insane amount.

It would have been a wise regional goal to preserve ROW's in the Fraser Valley but we are even sprawling out and building permanent structures there.

On a related note, it's insane how we have an abandoned ROW that runs from Marpole to New West that's not even under consideration for transit (Translink is not interested in the corridor). Same thing in Richmond, where we could easily connect Bridgeport Stn to East Richmond/Queensborough. Traffic has plummeted along that line and CN is looking to finally punch through a new rail ROW through South Richmond to abandon that northern line that goes down to Ironwood (via Shell).

The thing about tunnelling is that it's not actually all that expensive for the tunnel (relatively speaking of course). The stations and shafts are the particularly expensive component in most cases.

A longer tunnel isn't always that much more money than a shorter one unless you need to start doing fancy things like service tunnels and ventilation tunnels.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

There should absolutely be federal legislation to prioritize passenger trains, if only because the impact on freight given the passenger train volumes across Canada would be nominal but improving the on-time performance of passenger trains would make them more competitive as a transportation option.

This is literally never going to happen in the current shipping and goods movement world we live in. The value of goods moved by the shipping and logistics industry is staggering, nearing the trillions in Canada alone, so even 'miniscule' delays or inconveniences have massive implications. Saying there is no TVM for goods on rail is definitely not correct either, the old adage time is money is just as true anywhere as it is in shipping and logistics.

We're better off focusing our efforts on building dedicated lines for passenger service in the heavily congested areas (lower mainland etc...) and let the pittance of passengers choosing a 4 day journey across Canada by train deal with slight inconveniences, because they clearly aren't in a hurry.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

The thing about tunnelling is that it's not actually all that expensive for the tunnel (relatively speaking of course). The stations and shafts are the particularly expensive component in most cases.

A longer tunnel isn't always that much more money than a shorter one unless you need to start doing fancy things like service tunnels and ventilation tunnels.

What you say is interesting = and encouraging. There seems to be a sort of "tunnel-phobia" in Vancouver, perhaps due to the perceived high cost, plus an ingrained resistance to the idea in general.
Hopefully, what you say will help turn the anti-tunnel mentality around, at least to a degree.

[chowhou]

I'm wondering now if people in this thread are aware of Bill C-371.

It went through first reading in December, remains to be seen if it will be adopted or not.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Came up a few pages ago - my guess, it dies in the Senate.