OC Transpo

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Trams elsewhere aren't run as fast, especially on tight bends. And other cities don't get the seasonal changes we do.

Of course, Edmonton and Calgary have a much less seasonal changes and their trains crawl at tram speeds. And what, 40+ years in running LRT with good ridership, probably exceeding ours now. We are now making excuses for poor performance. Of course, I expect that 'go slow' orders are now a permanent feature of Line 1. A true fix will likely require closing the line for many months, and there is no appetite (and no drivers) for R1 buses over an extended time period.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Hmmm. I don't get the connection. Low floor LRT works all over the world in cold climates. They have mostly replaced high floor LRT on new line construction. Higher ridership just means running longer trains, and/or more frequent trains. The Santa Monica trains (which I rode) are pretty long, but they only run every 15 minutes (or something like that). There is absolutely no reason that those trains can't run every 5 minutes if ridership required it.

It is true that more frequent trains increase the possibility of train breakdowns and line blockages, but that happens no matter the train technology.

Well heavy rail is designed for heavier use. More and wider doors are the obvious difference but I'm sure there are other differences as well. Are trams meant to be going at crush loads around endless sharp turns? I have been no busy tram lines with sharp turns but in mixed traffic the max speed is usually much lower even if there are grade separated straightaways where they take advantage of the top speed.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Well heavy rail is designed for heavier use. More and wider doors are the obvious difference but I'm sure there are other differences as well. Are trams meant to be going at crush loads around endless sharp turns? I have been no busy tram lines with sharp turns but in mixed traffic the max speed is usually much lower even if there are grade separated straightaways where they take advantage of the top speed.

The YUS subway in Toronto has sharp turns downtown. Of course, trains will run slower on turns, but how slow? Trams making 90 degree turns in mixed traffic will be the slowest. Our turns are not that sharp, and the trains at Hurdman originally ran considerably faster. That tells us that there is a problem (a design problem?) that this cannot be maintained and we have to run at bicycle speed. I suspect that this design flaw at Hurdman would have created the same problem regardless of the type of train.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The YUS subway in Toronto has sharp turns downtown. Of course, trains will run slower on turns, but how slow? Trams making 90 degree turns in mixed traffic will be the slowest. Our turns are not that sharp, and the trains at Hurdman originally ran considerably faster. That tells us that there is a problem (a design problem?) that this cannot be maintained and we have to run at bicycle speed. I suspect that this design flaw at Hurdman would have created the same problem regardless of the type of train.

Well I've been on lots of fairly high speed curves on heavy Metros. It's common. I don't think it is common with Trams. If we have a grade separated metro using trams will cause problems seems basic.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Hmmm. I don't get the connection. Low floor LRT works all over the world in cold climates. They have mostly replaced high floor LRT on new line construction. Higher ridership just means running longer trains, and/or more frequent trains. The Santa Monica trains (which I rode) are pretty long, but they only run every 15 minutes (or something like that). There is absolutely no reason that those trains can't run every 5 minutes if ridership required it.

It is true that more frequent trains increase the possibility of train breakdowns and line blockages, but that happens no matter the train technology.

A lot of the problems here are use-related: doors being held open, number of times vehicles are going through these curves per day, wear and tear, etc.

Trams simply aren’t designed for this sort of use, which is why every other city in the world deploys light or heavy metro system in this sort of situation.

Trams in Europe go at low speeds, usually on a variety of routes. Trams in the US are very lightly used.

[acottawa]

A fairly typical use.

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[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Only city to attempt a high capacity metro using trams.

Not convinced that's "terrible", though.

[phil235]

I'm no transit expert by any stretch, but this "trams can't go around corners" commentary baffles me. Surely that can't be true.

I get the comments about the speed and number of turns, but there are quite a few spots where very heavily packed Toronto streetcars go around tight turns at reasonably high speeds. Is the problem really with the technology generally?

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by phil235

I'm no transit expert by any stretch, but this "trams can't go around corners" commentary baffles me. Surely that can't be true.

I get the comments about the speed and number of turns, but there are quite a few spots where very heavily packed Toronto streetcars go around tight turns at reasonably high speeds. Is the problem really with the technology generally?

There are also spots where heavily pack Toronto streetcar operators have to jump out and do something with a pole?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

I'm no transit expert by any stretch, but this "trams can't go around corners" commentary baffles me. Surely that can't be true.

I get the comments about the speed and number of turns, but there are quite a few spots where very heavily packed Toronto streetcars go around tight turns at reasonably high speeds. Is the problem really with the technology generally?

I don’t think anyone is suggesting trams can’t go around corners. It is that trams can’t go around corners at the speeds Ottawa needs them to.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Not convinced that's "terrible", though.

Terrible enough that it doesn't motivate higher level governments to be more generous with us.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Of course, Edmonton and Calgary have a much less seasonal changes and their trains crawl at tram speeds. And what, 40+ years in running LRT with good ridership, probably exceeding ours now. We are now making excuses for poor performance.

Edmonton and Calgary bought rail vehicles designed for their environment. We let our contractor make us a beta tester in their effort to develop an export market for a tram designed to operate in France.

And it's not an excuse. It's an explanation of how we failed and why higher levels of government don't feel motivated to throw good money after bad.

Smaller silver lining is Alstom similarly screwing over Metrolinx makes us look less terrible.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I don’t think anyone is suggesting trams can’t go around corners. It is that trams can’t go around corners at the speeds Ottawa needs them to.

Are the speeds in Ottawa faster than the speeds on the Harbourfront LRT?

[phil235]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

There are also spots where heavily pack Toronto streetcar operators have to jump out and do something with a pole?

I think that is when the pantograph slips off the wire? Can't say I saw that much.

They might be able to manually change tracks at a spot like Church and Queen, or at least they used to do that.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by phil235

Are the speeds in Ottawa faster than the speeds on the Harbourfront LRT?

Does this LRT go around corners with crush load passengers every few minutes? Is it a light Metro or a Tram which is what Ottawa has?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by phil235

Are the speeds in Ottawa faster than the speeds on the Harbourfront LRT?

Yes. Might not feel that way. But stop spacing and grade separation determine speeds. With stops 1-2 km apart instead of 300-500m and no traffic to worry about, our LRVs can run much faster.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Does this LRT go around corners with crush load passengers every few minutes? Is it a light Metro or a Tram which is what Ottawa has?

Harbourfront isn't LRT. It's trams running in the middle of, or beside, the street and stopping every few hundred metres. Stops are like bus shelters.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Harbourfront isn't LRT. It's trams running in the middle of, or beside, the street and stopping every few hundred metres. Stops are like bus shelters.

So not remotely comparable. Trams don't whip around corners at 50 km/h+ speeds. Nor have passenger levels anywhere near Ottawa's Metro. It would help if we just called our system a Metro with ridership as well.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

So not remotely comparable. Trams don't whip around corners at 50 km/h+ speeds. Nor have passenger levels anywhere near Ottawa's Metro. It would help if we just called our system a Metro with ridership as well.

I think continuing the "O-Train" name (first used on a heavy rail commuter train) kinda says that it's a metro. In any case, the problem is not the name. It's easy we designed a system that we intended to ramp up peak demand close to TTC subway levels, using teams. That's the problem.

[lrt's friend]

Where does Ottawa's LRT make turns comparable to TTC streetcars? Even the curves at Hurdman are not comparable to making a right or left turn at a city intersection.