Transit Fantasies

[Migrant_Coconut]

If the MST want to pay for the streetcar, by all means.... but it needs much better stats than 15 km/h and 8-minute headways if they want the rest of the City to ride it.

Come to think of it, would they try to integrate with Compass, or opt for a brand new card? That could be a hassle.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Bobert

If our options are a north shore line, extension to UBC, and another surrey line... I'm putting the north shore line at the bottom of the list of likely projects

My main reasons being

1. The growing importance of surrey electorally, and as I mentioned the huge under investment in the city across the board.

2. The northshore line will have to go along with, or follow a replacement of the second narrows... there's no timeline for this.

3. Local politics on the mayors council will dictate where this goes, and I heavily suspect surrey and vancouver will work hand in hand on their respective projects going through.

1. Surrey got their long-fought-for Skytrain, and is/has been getting substantial capital funding for non-Skytrain transit improvements such as the R6 and coming KGB BRT. Also don't forget that the North Shore is a political battleground too. Along the Purple Line alignment, West Vancouver—Sunshine Coast—Sea to Sky Country, North Vancouver, Burnaby North—Seymour, and Burnaby South are all projected to be battleground ridings, whereas ridings in Surrey like Surrey—Newton and South Surrey—White Rock are pretty locked in right now. (And of course provincially everyone except the NDP is in complete disarray.)

2. There's no requirement for the purple line to be built with a Second Narrows replacement. If anything, given that the purple line will at some point align with Willingdon, it makes more sense for the crossing to be further east. The Second Narrows is "narrow" all the way until around Gilmore so it would kind of be a waste to not cross around there, considering that Translink has a mandate to limit tunneling as much as possible. Remember that the "purple line alignment" that crosses the Second Narrows and goes along Hastings from the Cassiar Tunnel to Willingdon is not a construction alignment designed by engineers, it's just a rough route along the existing roads that was provided to differentiate the "purple line" eastwards vs the "gold line" westwards.

3. Remember that Burnaby is part of the Mayors' Council too and gets around half of the purple line service. Surrey and Vancouver might be the two largest munis, but Burnaby is the third largests and their votes on the Mayors' Council (12) + the North Shore munis (DNV 5 + CNV 3 + DWV 3) is 23 which rivals Surrey's at 26. The North Shore line can be prioritized easily if Vancouver and a couple of other munis get on board, even if Surrey + Delta + Langley are all dissenting voices.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

UBC and the North Shore both have studies, potential alignments and feasibility/ridership/catchment estimates.

King George, Scott Road, or any SkyTrains along those lines have absolute jack squat - that should be evidence enough of TransLink and Victoria's priorities. Surrey's set to receive SkyTrain all the way to Langley and the most RapidBuses and/or BRTs of any part of the metro, so they're not getting nothing.

On the contrary, KGB has a massive BRT plan in place, so assuming that goes ahead the odds of it getting replaced with Skytrain in the near term (20 years) is pretty slim.

Originally Posted by mcj

The feds paying for an indigenous run transit system that overrides the province is a pretty based idea haha.

It wouldn't be the first indigenous run transit system in BC! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaoham_Shuttle

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

If the MST want to pay for the streetcar, by all means.... but it needs much better stats than 15 km/h and 8-minute headways if they want the rest of the City to ride it.

Come to think of it, would they try to integrate with Compass, or opt for a brand new card? That could be a hassle.

In our fantasy scenario, I would imagine they'd go the ProTrans route and run as an independent operator while being integrated into the Translink infrastructure... if Translink would let them.

[Bobert]

But that's what I'm saying. Vancouver and Surrey have teamed up in the past to get their wants through over what the other municipalities want. I can't remember which project it was but that has happened once or twice in the last couple of years. It's not outside the realm of possibility that Vancouver asks for Surreys support in getting the UBCx line through in support of investment in Surrey

Studies can be redone, reprioritized... That's not a major barrier. 4-5 years ago we were looking at an LRT with three legs in surrey. We also had a bridge under construction to replace a tunnel

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Bobert

But that's what I'm saying. Vancouver and Surrey have teamed up in the past to get their wants through over what the other municipalities want. I can't remember which project it was but that has happened once or twice in the last couple of years. It's not outside the realm of possibility that Vancouver asks for Surreys support in getting the UBCx line through in support of investment in Surrey

Studies can be redone, reprioritized... That's not a major barrier. 4-5 years ago we were looking at an LRT with three legs in surrey. We also had a bridge under construction to replace a tunnel

A large chunk of SoF students travel to/from UBC every day; Vancouver doesn't need a quid pro quo when it's already in Surrey's best interests to get the extension approved (whereas they gain nothing from blocking it).

The Surrey streetcar and GMB were political choices. Again, who would be reshuffling the North Shore Line? The only electable provincial party is clearly in favour of it, and the only viable opposition party dislikes transit entirely.

[RedArbutus]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Come to think of it, would they try to integrate with Compass, or opt for a brand new card? That could be a hassle.

No way they would come out with their own (electronic) fare system from scratch. I'll go out on a limb and say the masses would avoid riding in droves if it meant switching to another different payment system to transfer. Existing cities that have a mess of operators and fare systems are more likely to be sprawling cities that connect regional rail to urban rail and bus (think Toronto pre-Presto harmonization). A streetcar route near the CBD bridging relatively dense urban neighbourhoods? Can't see that working unless they get on Compass, not just from a raw numbers point of view but also popular opinion. Both the MST and Translink would be the laughingstock of the media if they tried rolling out with their own. I can see the Dailyhive headline now...

Anyway, putting all that aside, as a former east Kits resident I 100% endorse this transit fantasy and it would be amazing if the MST made it work!

[MalcolmTucker]

The two ferry systems in the creek do just fine without any fancy fare systems.

I wonder if had just kept the Olympic Line how busy it would be today, especially during cruise ship season. Perhaps Granville Island would feel less like a rolling traffic jam most of the day.

[RedArbutus]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The two ferry systems in the creek do just fine without any fancy fare systems.

I wonder if had just kept the Olympic Line how busy it would be today, especially during cruise ship season. Perhaps Granville Island would feel less like a rolling traffic jam most of the day.

For sure. But I was responding to MigrantCoconut's comment about Compass vs an alternative fare payment system, not Compass vs tapping your CC, which is the status quo for the boats. Heck, it feels like they only rolled out on-board POS machines a couple years ago. It was cash only until pretty recently.

And in any case, there's what, like 8 people on average on a FCF/Aquabus? A dozen? It's not exactly high traffic (and I say that as a former West Ender who actually has used them to run errands, so I'm well aware it's not 100% tourists on them). I'm not concerned about financial feasibility of a system, but rather if masses of people flock to something, in that there's a measurable increase in transit usage as a proportion of travel mode. I think it's probable that there would be substantially more usage from people getting from Senakw or Vanier Park to, say, Arbutus Station or Kerrisdale, if the mode of fare payment they used to get there was Compass, compared to an alternative loadable card.

[cganuelas1995]

A rough concept of a redesign of Commercial-Broadway station, turning it into an 8 platform cross-platform interchange with three entrances

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1ndynU8fbHaBhO0PgOltj7KZWEzNf_gM&usp=sharing

[waves]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

A rough concept of a redesign of Commercial-Broadway station, turning it into an 8 platform cross-platform interchange with three entrances

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1ndynU8fbHaBhO0PgOltj7KZWEzNf_gM&usp=sharing

On paper sometimes one would think that it would be best to have station platforms sit on top of one another, but sometimes it is not necessary and the distance from platform to platform is not actually shorter once you take into account the walking distance travelled by the pedestrian.

In New York the stations are only about 4m tall underground and the tracks sit right on top of each other so the distance from platform to platform by stairs (or escalator, but in NYC esclators are non-existent pretty much) is very small. With Commercial-Broadway the expo line is 9m off the ground and the Millenium Line is likely another 9ish meters below it. With an 18m separation, you are looking at a 30m horizontal travel for an escalator (or longer for stairs with rest landings).

With the current CB platform layout, transfers have to walk a total of 78m not including escalators which is pretty far, but the bulk of that is walking along the Broadway overpass. If the goal was to shorten the walking distance from platform to platform, the simpler option would be to shift the expo line platforms north overtop of Broadway and eliminate that extra 50m of walking distance.


Source: https://i.imgur.com/33pr02L.jpeg

[Migrant_Coconut]

I dunno, TransLink seems to have an aversion to platforms over the street.

[officedweller]

Another factor is that distance between platforms is beneficial in spreading out crush loads of passengers and provides overflow holding areas.

A classic example of platforms being too close to each other without adequate crush or holding areas is Bloor-Yonge station in Toronto where the platforms are right over top of each other (at 90 degree angles)

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I dunno, TransLink seems to have an aversion to platforms over the street.

I was gonna mention Main Street-Science World but then I remembered that it was built under BC Transit

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

I was gonna mention Main Street-Science World but then I remembered that it was built under BC Transit

Yup. Likewise, I doubt we'll ever see another "straddle" tower like VanCity - engineers in 2024 apparently want to play it safer.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I dunno, TransLink seems to have an aversion to platforms over the street.

Gotta guard against those overheight trucks!

[madog222]

Sapperton and Lougheed both straddle a road.

One major consideration is that the propulsion power substations are typically located below stations. The benefit of locating a station over a road needs to outweigh the potentially wasted space and increased cost of having them located under the tracks elsewhere.

[mcj]

Pretty sure Green Timbers Station counts as straddling a road.

[scottN]

Originally Posted by madog222

Sapperton and Lougheed both straddle a road.

Also Main, Joyce, Patterson, Royal Oak and Gateway. Technically these stations were built before the translink era. However translink did renovate the main street station and doubled down on having entrances on both sides of the street.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Yeah, the point is that 2024 TransLink seems to favour "boring but practical."

[cganuelas1995]

Scott Road also straddles a road