Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I can assure you that I too have difficulty receiving service in English at most drive-thrus in Moncton, as well as frequently with counter service too.

What language do they talk?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

San Jose is not really a city. Lol. You'd find it rather similar to "Hull", just with palm trees and better maintained streets (yes, streets in downtown San Jose are surprisingly well maintained).


Y.

Yes, not having several freeze-thaw cycles a year makes street maintenance much easier!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

San Jose is not really a city. Lol. You'd find it rather similar to "Hull", just with palm trees and better maintained streets (yes, streets in downtown San Jose are surprisingly well maintained).

The only city in the Bay Area is SF, but even SF is not a grand urban city the way large European cities can be. It's rather small, and quickly becomes a suburb, even inside the municipal limits of the City of San Francisco.

Yes, but one big thing you forget to enter into the equation is... humidity. The air in California is very dry. 25 in Mountain is 25 with very dry weather, so you never feel hot, you don't need AC. We even had a brief heatwave that reached 100, and it was so dry (and fresh at night, temperature dropping from 100 in the afternoon to 70 at night) that it was perfectly bearable without AC. Most people in the Silicon Valley don't have AC, even rich people. You do need central heating though, because winter nights can be cold due to the desert climate (0 degrees Celsius at dawn is frequent in winter, rising to 15 degrees C in the afternoon, then dropping again to 0 at night). The very large "amplitude thermique", which is typical of deserts, can be a bit tiring (tiring as in it tires the body, and makes you feel tired). I never completely got used to it. I prefer when the temperature doesn't change too much between day and night.

Gatineau, on the other hand, I'm quite certain that it must be rather humid in summer, so 27 would probably start to feel a little sticky and uncomfortable, and require AC at home.

Also, don't know how it is in Gatineau, but in the Silicon there are.... no mosquitoes in summer. This must go along with the dry weather. It's so great to live in a place that has no mosquitoes in summer... On the 'minus' side, because of the desert climate, summer nights are always a bit coolish, so you always need a light jacket, and you cannot walk in T-shirt at night in summer, which is one thing I missed a lot about summer there. I'm quite sure that you can walk in T-shirt at night in Gatineau in summer.

But dry desert nights make for incredible night skies. I have never seen the Moon so beautiful and "crisp" as in the Silicon Valley. Really stunning. Much more stars are also visible in the sky than in more humid climates.

Yes, Gatineau is very humid in the summer. We don't have any month that averages a maximum of 30C but we are in the upper 20s and with the humidity it means most days in June-July-August (and some in May and September too) feel like 30C or more.

There are mosquitoes here for sure but in the city it's not so bad. And it's only for about 2 weeks that you really have them. Not the whole summer.

And yes because it's humid even if you're out at midnight shorts and a t-shirt are fine.

You're perfectly fine in a wet swimsuit most evenings after dark, quite late even.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, not having several freeze-thaw cycles a year makes street maintenance much easier!

Ah, sure, that helps. In California, car insurance is far cheaper than in Canada. I was told that's because your cars age much faster due to the salt on roads.

But even for "temperate" climates, San Jose's streets are surprisingly well maintained. As you probably know, streets in US cities can be very badly maintained, cold climate or not. Those in San Jose are very well maintained, better than in SF or other municipalities in the Bay. They also have great rows of trees lining the streets in their downtown.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Whenever my SO's brother visits us in Toronto, he insists to order only in French at Timmies. His way to reciprocate the love, even though he's bilingual.

No offense, but that's a dick move.

Whereas an aloof, unilingually-English Ontarian ordering in English in Chicoutimi would be merely an ignorant move.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And yes because it's humid even if you're out at midnight shorts and a t-shirt are fine.

I was able to walk in shorts and T-shirt at night in San Francisco only ONCE, in several years. ONCE! That was in early October. It may seem very bizarre to outsiders, but in SF, where everything is different from anywhere else in North America, the hottest period of the year is NOT July-August (these months, when unsuspecting tourists come to visit, are in fact the worst, because of the dreaded fog in the evening; in fact in SF I've experienced colder days in July than in January, that's how crazy SF can be). The warmest weeks of the year in San Francisco are the 2 last weeks of September and 1st week of October, when the fog finally recedes, and the continent is still very hot, so you can get some warmish night (not super warm, but warmish). That one and only time in T-shirt at night in SF must have been in the first week of October, and temperature was around 22 Celsius at 9pm, which is exceptionally hot for that time of the day in SF (usually, 9pm in SF should be around 17 Celsius if there is no fog, and 14 Celsius if there is fog, with cold wind blowing from the ocean on top).

The fog never reaches the Silicon Valley, so it's warmer than SF in July-August, but not warm enough at night for T-shirt.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I was able to walk in shorts and T-shirt at night in San Francisco only ONCE, in several years. ONCE! That was in early October. It may seem very bizarre to outsiders, but in SF, where everything is different from anywhere else in North America, the hottest period of the year is NOT July-August (these months, when unsuspecting tourists come to visit, are in fact the worst, because of the dreaded fog in the evening; in fact in SF I've experienced colder days in July than in January, that's how crazy SF can be). The warmest weeks of the year in San Francisco are the 2 last weeks of September and 1st week of October, when the fog finally recedes, and the continent is still very hot, so you can get some warmish night (not super warm, but warmish). That one and only time in T-shirt at night in SF must have been in the first week of October, and temperature was around 22 Celsius at 9pm, which is exceptionally hot for that time of the day in SF (usually, 9pm in SF should be around 17 Celsius if there is no fog, and 14 Celsius if there is fog, with cold wind blowing from the ocean on top).

The fog never reaches the Silicon Valley, so it's warmer than SF in July-August, but not warm enough at night for T-shirt.

Since the SF Bay area is in California a lot of people think because of TV and movies that it's like Baywatch with people in bikinis frolicking in the water all day and all night.

Of course the pop culture is based on LA primarily, though even there the water at the world-famous beaches isn't particularly warm even in mid-summer.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

What language do they talk?

I suppose Hindi or Tagalog mostly, but they try to serve you in heavily accented English. It’s obvious they have trouble understanding North American English spoken at normal speed.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Since the SF Bay area is in California a lot of people think because of TV and movies that it's like Baywatch with people in bikinis frolicking in the water all day and all night.

Of course the pop culture is based on LA primarily, though even there the water at the world-famous beaches isn't particularly warm even in mid-summer.

Yeah I know, people are always amazed when I tell them. Around San Francisco, the ocean is as cold as Denmark, or Southern Norway. You cannot swim. You would die within a few minutes without a suit in fact. But I wouldn't even swim with a suit, because of the great white sharks, which are present outside San Francisco. The current is also extremely violent and dangerous.

In LA, the ocean is like Cornwall in England, or Brittany in France, so you can only swim in July and August, but it's going to be fresh like Brittany/Cornwall, not warm like the Med.

To get warm water you have to go to southern Baja California (northern Baja California is still a bit too cold). That's why many people go to Los Cabos, at the southern tip of Baja California.

Another oddity of California is most pools are outdoor, but they need to warm them, because otherwise they would be too cold due to the cold nights. I knew a couple of retired people in the Silicon Valley who had an outdoor pool and didn't warm it, I tried to swim once (during a heatwave in July), it was frigid!!

In winter, the large municipal outdoor pools in the Silicon Valley are all warmed (and well warmed, because that's the US and spending energy is not an issue), but due to the rapid drop in temperatures after sunset at 5m, if you go to the pool at, say, 7pm, it's barely 10 degrees C outside, so you freeze from the locker room to the pool, and you can see the surface of the water fume in the cold air, as you would over the St Lawrence in winter. I bet you didn't imagine that about California!

Never understood why they don't build their large municipal pools indoor.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

No offense, but that's a dick move.

Whereas an aloof, unilingually-English Ontarian ordering in English in Chicoutimi would be merely an ignorant move.

Well he definitely has no love lost for Anglo Canada, that part is for sure. For him it's resentment that the responsibility for upholding bilingualism falls uniquely on the shoulders of Québécois in this federation. Even as an Allophone with no skin in this game, I empathise with their position.

But for his unilingual-French parents, it's a real barrier visiting the ROC. It's why they've turned down visiting Toronto and Ontario so far.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Well he definitely has no love lost for Anglo Canada, that part is for sure. For him it's resentment that the responsibility for upholding bilingualism falls uniquely on the shoulders of Québécois in this federation. Even as an Allophone with no skin in this game, I empathise with their position.

But for his unilingual-French parents, it's a real barrier visiting the ROC. It's why they've turned down visiting Toronto and Ontario so far.

So he takes it out on a service worker who earns minimum wage?

Chances are the service worker speaks another language other than English, but it's probably not going to be French. Why would it be? Unlike Montreal, Toronto has never had a major presence in the other official language. I don't see why any services have to be provided in French here, just as how I don't expect municipal services in the Saguenay to be available in English. I don't even expect that in places that have English place names that were founded by Anglos like Thetford Mines.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

So he takes it out on a service worker who earns minimum wage?

Chances are the service worker speaks another language other than English, but it's probably not going to be French. Why would it be? Unlike Montreal, Toronto has never had a major presence in the other official language. I don't see why any services have to be provided in French here, just as how I don't expect municipal services in the Saguenay to be available in English. I don't even expect that in places that have English place names that were founded by Anglos like Thetford Mines.

On the other side of the coin, we hear a lot of ROCers constantly complain that their servers in some random off-island Quebec adventure doesn't (or refuses to) serve them in English..I don't see how it's really any different. Pleading ignorance doesn't cut it.

Let's not pretend English-Canadians are aloof about the language situation here like American tourists are.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

On the other side of the coin, we hear a lot of ROCers constantly complain that their servers in some random off-island Quebec adventure doesn't (or refuses to) serve them in English..I don't see how it's really any different. Pleading ignorance doesn't cut it.

Let's not pretend English-Canadians are aloof about the language situation here like American tourists are.

It's generally a different attitude for sure.

Americans might react negatively to someone not speaking English in Quebec, but these are the exact same Americans who would do the same in Brazil or Germany.

Many ROCers on the other hand behave like they "own" Quebec and as such can have different behaviour in Quebec compared to when they are abroad.

It's not uncommon to have our fellow citizens walk around Quebec (even living there) and expect everyone to speak English (and huff and puff when they don't) but then go to great pains to speak another language - including French in some cases - when abroad.

(I don't want to appear too negative so I will give kudos to the minority of ROCers who do make an effort to speak French here.)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's worth noting that Michel Thibodeau's name was dragged through the mud by the media for months and years and he became reviled and even threatened in the community he lives in (Ottawa). Part of the witchhunt against him even took place on this forum, in addition to many others.

All because he tried to compel Air Canada to respect the law.

And the flight attendant was not at all apologetic and was clearly being a bitch while pretending to not understand what "un seven-up, s'il-vous-plaît" means.

I was just on another forum and someone used his name as an example of dickhead unreasonable francophone.

[begratto]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Not much in the way of "first class service" in the Saguenay, or, Baie Comeau I wager.

Even in Montmagny, I remember stopping at a McDonald's in the downtown (not by the highway) for a break, and provoking quite a bit of excitement for the local citizenry. I ordered in French, but conversed with my son about what he wanted for lunch in English, and this simple act resulted in people watching us closely, pointing at us and no doubt wondering what we were doing there the whole time we were eating, I found it quite amusing.

BTW, I am not bilingual, but, if you grew up in eastern Canada, I'm sure you can read a menu in French and order a meal in French.

Happens to us all the time in small towns as our family travels outside of Quebec. There's no hostility, but people in Concord NH, Lancaster PA or Newport RI are definitely intrigued when they hear us speaking in French. Doesn't happen as much in bigger cities as they are used to hearing people speaking other languages I guess.

[begratto]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Ah, sure, that helps. In California, car insurance is far cheaper than in Canada. I was told that's because your cars age much faster due to the salt on roads.

I doubt it. I drive a 2019 car that was worth 60K$ when it was new, and I pay 600$ of insurance per year. I can't imagine it can be much lower in California...

[begratto]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I suppose Hindi or Tagalog mostly, but they try to serve you in heavily accented English. It’s obvious they have trouble understanding North American English spoken at normal speed.

Still, there's a world of difference between being served in bad English in Moncton and not being served in French at all in Montreal's downtown...

[Kilgore Trout]

Fast food chains in downtown Montreal (and sometimes other parts of the city) are increasingly staffed by TFWs who are hired as cheap labour. They're not immigrants who struggle with French, they're people who will never have a chance to learn French because they're working long hours at minimum wage and likely won't be here for more than a few years.

Meanwhile, at the specialty coffee shop I go to that is staffed almost exclusively by heavily-accented anglophones, I am served in French 100% of the time. I'm pretty sure they think I'm francophone because even on the occasions I order in English, they eventually switch back to French.

Incidentally, a cup of direct-trade, micro-roasted filter coffee from them costs $2.20, compared to $1.80 for the swill at Tim Horton's. All that exploitation and disrespect isn't worth the 40 cent savings... not to mention the difference in quality and taste.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by begratto

I doubt it. I drive a 2019 car that was worth 60K$ when it was new, and I pay 600$ of insurance per year. I can't imagine it can be much lower in California...

Can't tell you, because it was several years ago, but all I remember is it was very cheap (and known to be among the cheapest in the US, which people assigned to benign weather, no salt on roads, and lower criminality than in places like Florida).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by begratto

Still, there's a world of difference between being served in bad English in Moncton and not being served in French at all in Montreal's downtown...

Yeah. I think what he doesn't understand (or doesn't want to understand) is that what irks people there is not immigrants speaking broken French because their main language is Tagalog or Chinese, but immigrants speaking English without making the effort to learn French.

I discussed with some Lebanese people some years ago who migrated to Montréal, and they said many immigrants arrived in Montréal because that's the only place that would accept them (because extra points by coming from supposedly Francophone countries like Lebanon I suppose, despite the fact more people speak English than French these days in Lebanon after more than 40 years of US lobbying to expel French influence in Lebanon), but they don't think they'll stay in Québec, their idea is to later move to Toronto, and if possible the US, because there are more work opportunities in Toronto and the US, so why make the effort to learn French? That's the general idea.