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  #7061  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 2:24 AM
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They were numerous enough and entrenched enough in the Ste-Geneviève - Cap-Girardeau region to develop their own dialect the Americans called Paw Paw French. It was widely spoken until the 1960s.

Detroit also had Catholic masses in French until the 1960s.

I went to university with a Francophone guy from Detroit. His French was special but plenty good enough to chat and joke around with us. He'd be around 55.

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Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
The population of New France in 1760 is more usually estimated at 80,000 rather than 70,000. But the important thing to keep in mind is that the French settlements in the Midwest that Acajack is alluding to CONTINUED to develop after 1760, and in fact essentially developed after 1760, first under Spanish rule in the Spanish Louisiana (which was essentially managed by French local authorities, despite formal transfer to Spain in 1763), and then more strangely in the first decades of US rule over these territories after the Louisiana Purchase. For example St. Louis remained majority French in the first decades of the 19th century, and the French language remained spoken in the city until the end of the 19th century (there even existed 2 French newspapers in the city, Le Patriote and La Revue de l'Ouest).



Cap-Girardeau, in Missouri, on the Mississippi River, was founded in the 1790s under Spanish rule, and was another striving French community in the 19th century in the Midwest.

And of course there was also Detroit, where the French settlers remained the majority population until the early decades of the 19th century.

As for the Ohio Valley, unlike the Midwest it was not settled by French settlers, because it was Indian territory, and the colonial authorities of French Canada wanted to keep good relationships with the Indians for trade reasons and also to keep them as allies against the British. The French Canadian authorities did set up several French forts in the region however, including at Pittsburgh which was the French fort called Fort Duquesne. The French forts in the Ohio valley and south of Lake Ontairio were established there for military reasons, and not in order to colonize the area. The French settlements took place further west (Detroit, St. Louis, Cap-Girardeau, etc), and essentially after 1760.

On a side note, my high school in Southern France was twinned with the high school of Cap-Girardeau, and our city also has a cultural partnership with the Osage tribe of Amerindians, so that history is not forgotten in France.

That's the Osage memorial that was built in my hometown when I was in high school. Some of our classmates also went on a trip to Cap-Girardeau, but I didn't.

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  #7062  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 6:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I was in Latin America during the first part of the year and people were correcting me for saying "coche" (and not "carro") and "estacionar" (instead of "aparcar").
It varies from place to place. Some say coche, some say carro others say auto. Where I'm originally from coche means pig. 🐖
     
     
  #7063  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ToxiK View Post
OK, ROC provinces keep symbols instead of having services for Francophones in their territories while Québec wants a French face while keeping first class services for its Anglophone minority. Which of the 2 communities is best serve then? In 20-30 years there might not be enough Francophones left in other provinces to protest to keep French signs while Anglophones will still be thriving in Québec.
Thanks for my morning laugh...first class services for Anglophones in Quebec! LOL Have you ever been to New Brunswick?
     
     
  #7064  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 1:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Ozabald View Post
Thanks for my morning laugh...first class services for Anglophones in Quebec! LOL Have you ever been to New Brunswick?
Not much in the way of "first class service" in the Saguenay, or, Baie Comeau I wager.

Even in Montmagny, I remember stopping at a McDonald's in the downtown (not by the highway) for a break, and provoking quite a bit of excitement for the local citizenry. I ordered in French, but conversed with my son about what he wanted for lunch in English, and this simple act resulted in people watching us closely, pointing at us and no doubt wondering what we were doing there the whole time we were eating, I found it quite amusing.

BTW, I am not bilingual, but, if you grew up in eastern Canada, I'm sure you can read a menu in French and order a meal in French.
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  #7065  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 1:57 PM
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Thanks for my morning laugh...first class services for Anglophones in Quebec! LOL Have you ever been to New Brunswick?
One has to compare apples and oranges.

New Brunswick has large regions of the province that are almost 100% francophone. It stands to reason that those areas are going to have first-class French-language services.

The most anglophone region of Quebec (or sub-region) is the Pontiac which is about 55% anglophone it is part of the Outaouais region which is about 15% anglophone.

I'd argue that relative to population share, anglophones in the Outaouais and also the Montreal area (where they around 20% of the population) would be first-class compared to what francophones in the Moncton area have in terms of services in French. (And Moncton is the gold standard for French services in the ROC in areas where francophones are clearly a minority. So this excludes places like Caraquet, Edmundston and Hawkesbury.)

The ability to live in English in Montreal (a large part of which is due to Quebec-funded and -provided services) is definitely a gold standard when compared to the ability to live in French in Ottawa, in spite of our capital city having a francophone population similar in proportion to the anglophone community of Montreal.

(Road signs that say EAST-EST notwithstanding.)
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Last edited by Acajack; Feb 16, 2024 at 2:37 PM.
     
     
  #7066  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 2:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Ozabald View Post
Of course Quebec has had little bilingual highway signage for the past 40+ years since Bills 22 and 101 eliminated most bilingual signs. And don't forget Quebec francizied many Anglo community names. (ie: Hull and Aylmer now Gatineau; Wakefield now La Peche; etc.). Chat with the SANB and they will very clearly express their take on the removal of bilingual signage in New Brunswick. SANB has moved beyond promoting official bilingualism to now linguistic and institutional duality in NB.
Those were the results of mergers, not name changes of existing municipalities with unchanged boundaries.

The names of Wakefield, Hull and Aylmer live on as the names of districts within these larger municipalities.

https://www.gatineau.ca/portail/default....l%20du,(7)%20%2D%20Ville%20de%20Gatineau

https://www.gatineau.ca/portail/default....pal/district_1&ref=navigation-secondaire
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  #7067  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 3:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
One has to compare apples and oranges.

New Brunswick has large regions of the province that are almost 100% francophone. It stands to reason that those areas are going to have first-class French-language services.

The most anglophone region of Quebec (or sub-region) is the Pontiac which is about 55% anglophone it is part of the Outaouais region which is about 15% anglophone.

I'd argue that relative to population share, anglophones in the Outaouais and also the Montreal area (where they around 20% of the population) would be first-class compared to what francophones in the Moncton area have in terms of services in French. (And Moncton is the gold standard for French services in the ROC in areas where francophones are clearly a minority. So this excludes places like Caraquet, Edmundston and Hawkesbury.)

The ability to live in English in Montreal (a large part of which is due to Quebec-funded and -provided services) is definitely a gold standard when compared to the ability to live in French in Ottawa, in spite of our capital city having a francophone population similar in proportion to the anglophone community of Montreal.

(Road signs that say EAST-EST notwithstanding.)
Here's an article from La Presse. In mentions that Québec's anglophone universities are getting more than their share of financing compared to francophone ones. Even more true if you add that McGill will get for free the former hospital Royal-Victoria's land for free.

Yes, first class services.
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  #7068  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 3:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Ozabald View Post
Thanks for my morning laugh...first class services for Anglophones in Quebec! LOL Have you ever been to New Brunswick?
Anglos in Quebec have McGill, what's the best quality education one can get in NB without leaving the province?

Also as I mentioned earlier, the glass ceiling in NB. You can't become CEO of a major Canadian corporation, for example.
     
     
  #7069  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 3:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ToxiK View Post
Here's an article from La Presse. In mentions that Québec's anglophone universities are getting more than their share of financing compared to francophone ones. Even more true if you add that McGill will get for free the former hospital Royal-Victoria's land for free.

Yes, first class services.
Ah yes but stop signs in Montreal only say ARRÊT and so poor anglophones are still in danger of death from driving straight through one because they don't recognize what a red octogon means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMNzA6c_K2s
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  #7070  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 3:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Ah yes but stop signs in Montreal only say ARRÊT and so poor anglophones are still in danger of death from driving straight through one because they don't recognize what a red octogon means.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMNzA6c_K2s
While reading your post, I was thinking about that same RBO video...

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  #7071  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 3:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Ah yes but stop signs in Montreal only say ARRÊT and so poor anglophones are still in danger of death from driving straight through one because they don't recognize what a red octogon means.
But you know this is what a lawyer would argue in court, especially if the poor anglophone was an American and not a ROCer.

This is how the wayward anglophone parker at UdeM in Moncton was able to get out of paying his parking ticket. The on campus signage was seulement francais. The University was forced to make their parking signage (and the parking signage only) bilingual, ensuring the English part was multiple point sizes smaller, in pastel and italicized.
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  #7072  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 3:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Ah yes but stop signs in Montreal only say ARRÊT and so poor anglophones are still in danger of death from driving straight through one because they don't recognize what a red octogon means.
Hey, running red lights/stop signs is a truly bilingual endeavor. You can run them in either language.

"...and maybe I can't turn right on a red light but tab*#&$)@ I can go RIGHT TRU IT!"

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  #7073  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 3:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
One has to compare apples and oranges.

New Brunswick has large regions of the province that are almost 100% francophone. It stands to reason that those areas are going to have first-class French-language services.

The most anglophone region of Quebec (or sub-region) is the Pontiac which is about 55% anglophone it is part of the Outaouais region which is about 15% anglophone.

I'd argue that relative to population share, anglophones in the Outaouais and also the Montreal area (where they around 20% of the population) would be first-class compared to what francophones in the Moncton area have in terms of services in French. (And Moncton is the gold standard for French services in the ROC in areas where francophones are clearly a minority. So this excludes places like Caraquet, Edmundston and Hawkesbury.)

The ability to live in English in Montreal (a large part of which is due to Quebec-funded and -provided services) is definitely a gold standard when compared to the ability to live in French in Ottawa, in spite of our capital city having a francophone population similar in proportion to the anglophone community of Montreal.

(Road signs that say EAST-EST notwithstanding.)
Ah yes...the Pontiac region of Quebec. An area that the OQLF likes to target. Imagine, a business using English on a sign to communicate with the linguistic majority of the region.

Though not in Pontiac, There's Kitchen 73; where the restaurant owner was called "Un maudit bel effronté qui debarque du bateau" by Quebec's most infamous Anglophobe (Gilles Proulx) for having the audacity to have some bilingual signage.
     
     
  #7074  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 3:46 PM
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Really? So please tell where the bilingual service regions are in Quebec? And where are the bilingual driver's licenses and health cards? Ontario French language services is more than a faded bilingual sign (that's more likely to be found in QC) and you are being very disingenuous for making that comment.
Honestly I don't think Ontario French Language Services is worth bragging about. It sounds good on paper but the reality is that Ontario French Language services is practically non-existent, especially in Toronto.

The number of hoops my SO had to jump through just to get French services is frankly embarrassing (like prove you're a real francophone worthy of the service!), and SO has the FLS ombudsman on speed dial.

Up to this day, SO still gets most Ontario government correspondences only in English, and many departments you call into does not offer any French services (e.g. OSAP). The City of Toronto is even worse in this regard.

As my SO says, the biggest boast to Québec sovereignty would be to send Québécois to live in 2024 Toronto.
     
     
  #7075  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 4:00 PM
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But you know this is what a lawyer would argue in court, especially if the poor anglophone was an American and not a ROCer.

This is how the wayward anglophone parker at UdeM in Moncton was able to get out of paying his parking ticket. The on campus signage was seulement francais. The University was forced to make their parking signage (and the parking signage only) bilingual, ensuring the English part was multiple point sizes smaller, in pastel and italicized.
Does that mean that French Canadian don't have to pay a ticket in the ROC if signs are only in English, or does that only apply for signs in French only?
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  #7076  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 4:01 PM
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Honestly I don't think Ontario French Language Services is worth bragging about. It sounds good on paper but the reality is that Ontario French Language services is practically non-existent, especially in Toronto.

The number of hoops my SO had to jump through just to get French services is frankly embarrassing (like prove you're a real francophone worthy of the service!), and SO has the FLS ombudsman on speed dial.

Up to this day, SO still gets most Ontario government correspondences only in English, and many departments you call into does not offer any French services (e.g. OSAP). The City of Toronto is even worse in this regard.

As my SO says, the biggest boast to Québec sovereignty would be to send Québécois to live in 2024 Toronto.
Always fun to show up at a West End Toronto Serivce Ontario that proudly lists all the languages it provides service in (French included, because yay Canada), only to be given a blank stare when you attempt be served in French. It's a façade.
     
     
  #7077  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 4:07 PM
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Originally Posted by P'tit Renard View Post
Honestly I don't think Ontario French Language Services is worth bragging about. It sounds good on paper but the reality is that Ontario French Language services is practically non-existent, especially in Toronto.

The number of hoops my SO had to jump through just to get French services is frankly embarrassing (like prove you're a real francophone worthy of the service!), and SO has the FLS ombudsman on speed dial.

Up to this day, SO still gets most Ontario government correspondences only in English, and many departments you call into does not offer any French services (e.g. OSAP). The City of Toronto is even worse in this regard.

As my SO says, the biggest boast to Québec sovereignty would be to send Québécois to live in 2024 Toronto.
In all honesty and fairness the francophone population in Toronto is very small, especially compared to the anglophone community of Montreal.

Still, services in French in Ottawa both provincial and municipal are still not great in Ottawa which has a comparable linguistic minority to Montreal's within its city limits. In addition to having a predominantly francophone city (in Quebec) of 300,000 people that is part of its metro. And beyond government services, private sector services in Ottawa in French (compared to Montreal in English ) are a total joke. That's not the government of course, but it does contribute a lot to a community's ability to continue to exist and flourish in its own language.

Bottom line is as you say: the boasting about Ontario being so great for francophones compared to Quebec for anglophones is totally ridiculous.
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  #7078  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 4:08 PM
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Does that mean that French Canadian don't have to pay a ticket in the ROC if signs are only in English
Hard to say. NB is rigorously bilingual. There is a reasonable expectation here. It might not work in Alberta, but, it's worth a try.

I recall Acajack boasting once about torturing a hapless English speaking border guard at a minor border crossing somewhere in western Canada (I think) and feigning that he was a unilingual French speaker and demanding service en francais. I forget the details, but I think they eventually found somebody who could service him, but, it took some time.

Acajack was being a shit disturber to make a point, but, sometimes this is a worthwhile venture. Maybe you could try this with your parking ticket protest the next time you're in Lethbridge or Medicine Hat.
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  #7079  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 4:15 PM
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Hard to say. NB is rigorously bilingual. There is a reasonable expectation here. It might not work in Alberta, but, it's worth a try.

I recall Acajack boasting once about torturing a hapless English speaking border guard at a minor border crossing somewhere in western Canada (I think) and feigning that he was a unilingual French speaker and demanding service en francais. I forget the details, but I think they eventually found somebody who could service him, but, it took some time.

Acajack was being a shit disturber to make a point, but, sometimes this is a worthwhile venture. Maybe you could try this with your parking ticket protest the next time you're in Lethbridge or Medicine Hat.
Oh there have been cases of francophones challenging unilingual tickets and even unilingual "service from cops". Most in the West but also maybe one in New Brunswick.

Here is an example - far from the only one.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/francophone-speeding-ticket-fight-1.4249924

And BTW that border guard "torture" story isn't mine. Not sure where you got that.
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  #7080  
Old Posted Feb 16, 2024, 4:17 PM
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And BTW that border guard "torture" story isn't mine. Not sure where you got that.
Maybe it was lio. I could see him doing it too.

I definitely read it on SSP though. This was several years ago.
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