Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Kilgore Trout]

Yeah, I'll echo the idea that Germany is not particularly English-receptive. I admit I have limited experience in the country, but I was in Munich on a business trip without knowing more than a few words of German, and it turned out I had as much luck speaking French as English.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Yeah, I'll echo the idea that Germany is not particularly English-receptive. I admit I have limited experience in the country, but I was in Munich on a business trip without knowing more than a few words of German, and it turned out I had as much luck speaking French as English.

Every time I've been to Munich it has never been a problem. That's not to say everyone speaks English but those who could were more than willing to converse, even if it was just a few words. Ditto Austria.

More telling, it wasn't seen as some vast afront to their culture to speak an English word. I guess they're just more confident.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Every time I've been to Munich it has never been a problem. That's not to say everyone speaks English but those who could were more than willing to converse, even if it was just a few words. Ditto Austria.

More telling, it wasn't seen as some vast afront to their culture to speak an English word. I guess they're just more confident.

Yeah it's so weird what controlling a sovereign country of 90 million people with a millennial history of independence will do for a people's linguistic and cultural confidence.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Really, that cliche of the French being rude and refusing to speak English must have just materialized out of thin air then.

And I'm sure that pleasant Quebecois waitress in a Quebec City American-chain hotel really couldn't make the huge leap between cranberry and canneberge when I asked her for juice.

Sorry but while I've known both words since I was a child, I don't find cranberry and canneberge to be that intuitive to someone who doesn't know the other language. They have some similar letters but they're different enough, especially when you add in an accent.

[Acajack]

I have known for a long time that the high degree of concern in the ROC for second language English learning in Quebec isn't related to heartfelt worry about our ability to prosper in the global economy, but rather about avoiding any awkward contact with people who don't speak English when buying a pack of gum in St-Chysostôme on the drive from Toronto to Halifax.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by whatnext

More telling, it wasn't seen as some vast afront to their culture to speak an English word. I guess they're just more confident.

Interesting. My last few visits to Germany, we have definitely gotten dirty looks for speaking English, and some of the people who we could tell understood us refused to reply back in English... and I'm not just talking about the notorious bouncers standing guard in front of the Berlin nightclubs. Usually it's the younger Germans in the FIRE/Tech industries who've backpacked abroad etc who are more enamoured with communicating in English.

The experience was even worse for us in German Switzerland. After leaving the German side, we decided just to speak French exclusively in francophone Suisse so we don't ruffle more feathers.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by whatnext

And I'm sure that pleasant Quebecois waitress in a Quebec City American-chain hotel really couldn't make the huge leap between cranberry and canneberge when I asked her for juice.

On the other side of the coin, Quebecois can also be too English friendly(especially to serve the large crowds of American tourists) to a fault. Once took my in-laws to a seaside resort restaurant in a francophone region, and the waiters gave them English only menus and assigned us a waiter who only spoke English. Mind you my in-laws are monolingual French speakers, so it was an awfully awkward experience for them.

[Martin Mtl]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Yeah, I'll echo the idea that Germany is not particularly English-receptive. I admit I have limited experience in the country, but I was in Munich on a business trip without knowing more than a few words of German, and it turned out I had as much luck speaking French as English.

In Berlin I managed in English just about everywhere. Didn't get hostile reactions either.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Really, that cliche of the French being rude and refusing to speak English must have just materialized out of thin air then.

Yes, like many clichés. The French also don't eat frogs by the way.

I think a lot of these clichés (which are essentially found in the Anglophone world) come from the long wars between England and France. France was the arch-enemy of England for centuries, and the Francophobia (which is still surprisingly strong in England, think of their appalling and ephemeral prime minister Liz Truss who, when asked whether Emmanuel Macron was Britain's "friend or foe", responded "the jury is out" ), was brought to America by the English colonists, and can also be strong in some American quarters (Freedom fries anyone?). This explains most clichés about France, perhaps the only country and people that it is still PC to slur in the US (think John Kerry being called a "French effete" by the Bush camp, or that infamous commercial by Cadillac mocking the French).

• Video Link

[big T]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Interesting. My last few visits to Germany, we have definitely gotten dirty looks for speaking English, and some of the people who we could tell understood us refused to reply back in English... and I'm not just talking about the notorious bouncers standing guard in front of the Berlin nightclubs. Usually it's the younger Germans in the FIRE/Tech industries who've backpacked abroad etc who are more enamoured with communicating in English.

The experience was even worse for us in German Switzerland. After leaving the German side, we decided just to speak French exclusively in francophone Suisse so we don't ruffle more feathers.

Yeah, this can happen anywhere. I've been snickered at for speaking English in Copenhagen, of all places. But it was one out of hundreds of interactions over a week, so… you know what they say. Meet one asshole, you just ran into an asshole. If you keep running into them, well…
(To be clear - not aiming this at you Ptit renard)

[kool maudit]

I find Germany quite a bit more self-contained than Scandinavia or the Netherlands. It's not really English-unfriendly, but you can tell it doesn't come up as often.

I actually really like the German language and enjoy trying to speak it. My favourite European nexus is where German, French and Italian are used by non-natives to get by before English, so Switzerland basically. Just gives a Canadian boy that old Continental thrill, that realm from Munich to Lyon through the Alps and down towards Monaco and Trieste.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yes, like many clichés. The French also don't eat frogs by the way.

I think a lot of these clichés (which are essentially found in the Anglophone world) come from the long wars between England and France. France was the arch-enemy of England for centuries, and the Francophobia (which is still surprisingly strong in England, think of their appalling and ephemeral prime minister Liz Truss who, when asked whether Emmanuel Macron was Britain's "friend or foe", responded "the jury is out" ), was brought to America by the English colonists, and can also be strong in some American quarters (Freedom fries anyone?). This explains most clichés about France, perhaps the only country and people that it is still PC to slur in the US (think John Kerry being called a "French effete" by the Bush camp, or that infamous commercial by Cadillac mocking the French).

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That's a funny commercial.

How is it possibly francophobic? At most, it is poking fun at a friend.

I find it ironic that the biggest anglophobe on SSP, with the largest chip on his shoulder, would take so much offence and umbrage to this gentle jab. Compare it with your daily insinuations against the anglosphere, and your desire to see both Canada and the UK cleaved into little pieces. I'm frankly surprised you haven't yet proclaimed your support for the coming American civil war in order to see that country fragmented too.........

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Interesting. My last few visits to Germany, we have definitely gotten dirty looks for speaking English, and some of the people who we could tell understood us refused to reply back in English... and I'm not just talking about the notorious bouncers standing guard in front of the Berlin nightclubs. Usually it's the younger Germans in the FIRE/Tech industries who've backpacked abroad etc who are more enamoured with communicating in English.

The experience was even worse for us in German Switzerland. After leaving the German side, we decided just to speak French exclusively in francophone Suisse so we don't ruffle more feathers.

I wouldn't take it personally. Many people can understand a language well enough and yet not be confident enough to respond in it, especially in an environment where they're not necessarily expecting it. I had minimal problems understanding French-, Spanish- or German-speaking customers back in my service industry days but struggled to respond in anything other than English, especially if it was busy and I was frantically multitasking. I wasn't refusing to speak the customer's language or trying to make a point, just not in the headspace to take on the challenge.

As for "dirty looks"—this might be a bit of a cultural misunderstanding. I can see the facial expression that says Könnten Sie das bitte wiederholen? to a German coming across as What's wrong with this guy? to an English-speaking North American.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

How is it possibly francophobic? At most, it is poking fun at a friend.

'Anti-French' Cadillac ad sparks anger in France

https://www.thelocal.fr/20140414/cadilla...wI_DqHVe.aNm66NSo2G4vI-1707583254-0-5563

L'affligeante pub anti-française de Cadillac

https://www.slate.fr/tribune/85883/cadillac-publicite-french-bashing

Cadillac cède au «French bashing»

https://www.lefigaro.fr/medias/2014/04/1...0054-cadillac-cede-au-french-bashing.php

In fact even Ford felt they had to respond to that appalling Cadillac commercial.

Ford's Answer To Cadillac's Classist And Greedy Commercial Is Perfect

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ford-cadillac_n_5050950

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But your comment in itself is very revealing I would say. Francophobia is so ingrained in the Anglo-Saxon world you fail to even recognize it. It's just some "good old humor" for you. Just as "Chinaman" or "stingy Jews" was also some "good old humor".

Then you wonder why many of your fellow Francophone countrymen want to secede, and you call them "fickle" because you don't understand their opinions. Men also used to call women "fickle" back when misogyny was PC.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Then you wonder why many of your fellow Francophone countrymen want to secede, and you call them "fickle" because you don't understand their opinions. Men also used to call women "fickle" back when misogyny was PC.

My opinion matters little to you. You are an ardent pro Quebec separatist (even though you have no skin in the game and are a pure shit disturber).

Even if all anglophones in the country spoke passable French, and all Canadian Prime Ministers were always cultural and ethnic pur laine francophones from Quebec (which happens about 70% of the time anyway), this would still not be enough for you. For some reason, you feel it important to "stick it to the anglos", and agitate for the dissolution of the country anyway.

There is no point trying to seek common ground with you. Any interaction with you will always be belligerent and confrontational.

[New Brisavoine]

^^Ta paranoïa n'est plus à démontrer. Tu n'avais pas dit que tu quittais le fil dégoûté par sa "tonalité" ? Apparemment ta résolution n'a pas tenu bien longtemps...

[MonctonRad]

At least you have dropped your veil and responded to me purely en francais. This is probably your most emotionally and culturally honest post to date.

After all, if you hate the Anglos so much, then why bother to speak their language.

I imagine you as one of those francophones, who, when walking down a street in Montreal, upon hearing a couple of passers-by conversing innocently in English, would turn around and shout derisively "maudit anglais, ici on parle francais seulement!!!"

[lio45]

[Starring MonctonRad in the role of CPC MP Rachael Thomas]

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

[Starring MonctonRad in the role of CPC MP Rachael Thomas]

Dark Vador rather.

[blacktrojan3921]

This OP-ed from the Montreal Gazette really highlights why I think the NHL will never return to Quebec City.
https://montrealgazette.com/opinion/colu...al&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1707507953