Canadian Airport Thread II

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by zahav

Yikes that Air Canada plan for the 737s going to Rouge sounds horrendous. I think it's a terrible idea, and totally at odds with them trying to feed international flights thru YVR. There's a reason Rouge failed the first time, even before they pulled out entirely, they had moved routes like SFO and LAX back to mainline. They have grown the transborder feeds into YVR so much with mainline and Jazz (and Jazz is nothing like Rouge, contrary to what some might think, it is just a regional carrier but isn't some budget airline). There's a reason the vast majority of Rouge flights are point to point, leisure routes, and not really designed for outbound connections (inbound they get, from people all over Canada and the world going on an all-inclusive to Jamaica or something). But YVR-LAX is nothing like that, hence why it failed. The majority of the 737 destinations from YVR are nothing like Rouge's current list. Denver? SFO? IAH? ORD? On Rouge? Makes no sense. The only ones that do make sense are the Mexico flights, maybe Hawaii but not even since the last time it was a flop, and Vegas. Let's hope that was nothing but a rumour

Who says Rouge was a flop in the west? LAX/SFO might have been the wrong cities to send them to, but the rest made sense. I'd argue it's the retirement of the 767 that was the final nail in the coffin of Rouge out west.

Rouge isn't targeted for LAX/SFO, but rather LAS, PHX, SAN, Hawaii, Mexico, Florida, etc. Those are all perfect routes for a 180+ seat 7M8. Just look at MCO as a perfect example. AC can't compete with WS or Lynx on YVR-MCO. With a 180+seat 7M8, they could.

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

The Dash 8 fleet still has a lot of slack. All of the DH4 time from the E95 upgauged routes was reassigned to YOW. EWR, BOS, YFC & YQM were all given an extra daily frequency.

Yup for sure, but those increase frequencies have taken up all those Dash 8 hours or are there some to spare (and as a result something else can be added)?

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Yup for sure, but those increase frequencies have taken up all those Dash 8 hours or are there some to spare (and as a result something else can be added)?

There’s more than 3 DH4 lines worth of slack in the fleet. Plenty of slack to add daily YOW-YSB/YQB/YQG/YXU/YSJ, 2x YKF & 2x YHM to the schedule and still have room to spare.

The thing is, maybe some of that slack will be to rebuild secondary YTZ routes as PD at present are serving the following formerly multi daily cities only 1x daily each: YQG, YSB, YTS & YQB.

YXU is a market with so much unmet demand right now as all they have for winter 23-24 is WS less than daily to YYC and AC 3x to YYZ on DH4s. Some days this winter YXU has more sun flights than domestic. Crazy!

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Who says Rouge was a flop in the west? LAX/SFO might have been the wrong cities to send them to, but the rest made sense. I'd argue it's the retirement of the 767 that was the final nail in the coffin of Rouge out west.

Rouge isn't targeted for LAX/SFO, but rather LAS, PHX, SAN, Hawaii, Mexico, Florida, etc. Those are all perfect routes for a 180+ seat 7M8. Just look at MCO as a perfect example. AC can't compete with WS or Lynx on YVR-MCO. With a 180+seat 7M8, they could.

As I mentover in the Vancouver forum the Max8 is not a good aircraft for YVR-Hawaii. If you’re unfortunate enough to be seated in the last 6-10 rows half your trip is contemplating the huge line of pax waiting to use the two tiny lavs. I feel sorry for the cabin crew having to do any kind of service ou of that back galley with just one aisle.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

There’s more than 3 DH4 lines worth of slack in the fleet. Plenty of slack to add daily YOW-YSB/YQB/YQG/YXU/YSJ, 2x YKF & 2x YHM to the schedule and still have room to spare.

The thing is, maybe some of that slack will be to rebuild secondary YTZ routes as PD at present are serving the following formerly multi daily cities only 1x daily each: YQG, YSB, YTS & YQB.

YXU is a market with so much unmet demand right now as all they have for winter 23-24 is WS less than daily to YYC and AC 3x to YYZ on DH4s. Some days this winter YXU has more sun flights than domestic. Crazy!

PD needs to start looking more closely at the west coast. There is significant opportunity for them to connect Vancouver Island with their growing list of flights out of YVR. That would be an ideal use for Q400 if then send one of them this way. It would augment their direct non-stop from Toronto to Victoria. But I don't even think that is on their radar. They are far to focused on Ontario and Montreal.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by casper

PD needs to start looking more closely at the west coast. There is significant opportunity for them to connect Vancouver Island with their growing list of flights out of YVR. That would be an ideal use for Q400 if then send one of them this way. It would augment their direct non-stop from Toronto to Victoria. But I don't even think that is on their radar. They are far to focused on Ontario and Montreal.

They would need to open up a Q400 base in the west. That requires more pilots, or at the very least, a pilot relocation across the country, both of which costs money. PD has a lot going on right now. Between the E295s and the YHU terminal building, they're spending a lot of money, so probably a Q400 base out west isn't a top priority right now.

Originally Posted by whatnext

As I mentover in the Vancouver forum the Max8 is not a good aircraft for YVR-Hawaii. If you’re unfortunate enough to be seated in the last 6-10 rows half your trip is contemplating the huge line of pax waiting to use the two tiny lavs. I feel sorry for the cabin crew having to do any kind of service ou of that back galley with just one aisle.

It is the perfect aircraft for YVR-Hawaii (especially secondary destinations such as OGG or KOA) if you're AC management. One of the most fuel efficient and cost effective narrowbodies out there. No one cares if you're sitting in the last rows of the aircraft, least of which AC, or any other airline, for that matter.

Airlines don't make decisions based on passenger comfort. The sooner you realize that, the better.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by casper

PD needs to start looking more closely at the west coast. There is significant opportunity for them to connect Vancouver Island with their growing list of flights out of YVR. That would be an ideal use for Q400 if then send one of them this way. It would augment their direct non-stop from Toronto to Victoria. But I don't even think that is on their radar. They are far to focused on Ontario and Montreal.

You’ll probably see YOW-YYJ in due time. Basing a couple of DH4s out west would be really expensive when there’s a pile of YOW routes they could add or increase frequency on existing YOW & YTZ routes.

[MountainView]

Originally Posted by casper

PD needs to start looking more closely at the west coast. There is significant opportunity for them to connect Vancouver Island with their growing list of flights out of YVR. That would be an ideal use for Q400 if then send one of them this way. It would augment their direct non-stop from Toronto to Victoria. But I don't even think that is on their radar. They are far to focused on Ontario and Montreal.

I think Porter is trying to focus on connecting the west to the east, and not the east to the west.

East --> West is endpoint passengers.

West --> East is O&D combined with connection pax.

Think of something like, YVR to YQM/YYG/EWR/BOS... there are none or limited daily flights to those destinations - so Porter will try and capture that traffic via YOW (potentially YYZ/YUL in the future). They can also sell O&D on YVR-YOW. Same can be said with YEG/YYC for connection traffic. Albeit, WestJet does have a large market for Alberta-Eastern Canada / Maritimes flights.

Last August, my redeye YVR-YOW actually had connecting pax on to EWR which I was shocked AC actually sold something via YOW.

I'm not sure a YYJ-YOW flight would be in the cards for Summer 2024, but that would help the Island connect to eastern seaboard destinations that Porter flies to.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

They would need to open up a Q400 base in the west. That requires more pilots, or at the very least, a pilot relocation across the country, both of which costs money. PD has a lot going on right now. Between the E295s and the YHU terminal building, they're spending a lot of money, so probably a Q400 base out west isn't a top priority right now.

Top priority should be aiming to turn a profit soon, because capital runs out one day.

A recent conversation with someone flying Vancouver-Toronto on Porter seemed to indicate that flights were quite empty. As in: running at 1/3 capacity. 1990s redux of huge slack in airline flying. Anecdotal, I know.

Given Porter's rapid expansion and orders for more E195-E2s, combined with the ominous signs of the low-cost airlines becoming desperate for a finite pool of customers seem to indicate that the Canadian aviation market is just coming up to one of those exciting moments where we see how stable the financial positions of many airlines are.

Not sure the aviation industry is going to keep on its meteoric rise of the last decade into the next one.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Not sure the aviation industry is going to keep on its meteoric rise of the last decade into the next one.

It probably is. Not everyone will survive along the way, but the industry will consolidate and keep growing.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

It probably is. Not everyone will survive along the way, but the industry will consolidate and keep growing.

I'm somewhat curious as what propels this growth.

Mostly I see an industry that's squeezed out a lot of cost in the last couple of decades and now is into incremental improvements under demanding conditions.

Current outlook:
Higher fuel prices? Check.
Higher labour costs for pilots? Check.
Next generation of more fuel-efficient aircraft in fleets? Mostly done.
Wobblier economic conditions? Yep.

The group of high-travel individuals who've propelled the current boom are going to eventually slow their travelling over the next 20 years. It's one thing to enjoy the early years of one's retirement with jet-setting. The latter years are harder.

The current level of affordable airfare is the product of the firehose of capital being pushed into aviation startups on the domestic front. A wave of consolidation will likely just result in higher airfares, depressing demand.

An example: Pearson Airport's traffic doubled from 2003-2019 - a similar rate of growth seems quite ambitious for 2024 on.

[casper]

Originally Posted by MountainView

I think Porter is trying to focus on connecting the west to the east, and not the east to the west.

East --> West is endpoint passengers.

West --> East is O&D combined with connection pax.

Think of something like, YVR to YQM/YYG/EWR/BOS... there are none or limited daily flights to those destinations - so Porter will try and capture that traffic via YOW (potentially YYZ/YUL in the future). They can also sell O&D on YVR-YOW. Same can be said with YEG/YYC for connection traffic. Albeit, WestJet does have a large market for Alberta-Eastern Canada / Maritimes flights.

While YOW is well setup for connecting passengers domestically, it has some work to do on the US connections infrastructure to be as smother as Terminal 1 in Toronto or Vancouver. That said it is still much better customer experience that Terminal 3 in Toronto.

Originally Posted by MountainView

Last August, my redeye YVR-YOW actually had connecting pax on to EWR which I was shocked AC actually sold something via YOW.

In the summer I was on the YVR-YOW flight. It was one of the widebody, left late, so there were quite a few passengers worried about their connection to Quebec City. I would not have expected YOW being a connecting airport for AC but clearly it is.

Originally Posted by MountainView

I'm not sure a YYJ-YOW flight would be in the cards for Summer 2024, but that would help the Island connect to eastern seaboard destinations that Porter flies to.

YYJ is underserved. Flights most filled and frequently sold out if your trying to book last minute. YYJ needs more flights. Porter is a welcome addition.

[hollywoodcory]

WS has loaded its summer schedule changes for....just the month of May? I guess they doing it month-to-month now.

Most of the changes were timings/equipment changes. A few domestic routes are resuming a month earlier including:

YYC-YYG
YYC-YQT
YEG-YQM
YEG-YYT

The 787 was removed from YYC-YYZ turns as well. It also seems they've reduced YUL as well as YYC-YUL appears to be only 6x weekly.

YYC-YQM also goes daily from mid-May instead of mid-June. Curious if maybe they'll take a crack at YYC-YFC?

[Myst]

Originally Posted by MountainView

Last August, my redeye YVR-YOW actually had connecting pax on to EWR which I was shocked AC actually sold something via YOW.

I’ve connected at YOW on AC. From EWR, as well, actually. Possibly elsewhere too.

AC definitely seems to be focusing on bulking up YUL into another fortress like YYZ. In some ways not trying to be all things to all people might make the market healthier. In other ways there’s some good things that have been lost along the way.

[Myst]

Originally Posted by casper

While YOW is well setup for connecting passengers domestically, it has some work to do on the US connections infrastructure to be as smother as Terminal 1 in Toronto or Vancouver. That said it is still much better customer experience that Terminal 3 in Toronto.

My perspective, even on US to domestic at YOW is positive. I don’t like reclearing security, but reasonable waiting and walking times means I wouldn’t go out of my way to avoid.

To also try to be a little positive on YYZ-T3, they just opened an international to domestic quick connection a few weeks ago. It’s way at the end of the concourse (by B18, iirc?) but really should have been near the core of the building (like close to B26).

I try to avoid T3. And it is ridiculous that they didn’t even do the simple things like priority lines for connections (or if they did, they’re recent or horribly marked). Canada to US is painful. International to domestic was painful. And without good reason. It’s not new anymore, but it is a modern terminal design with enough traffic to warrant making it connection friendly. I might not like reclearing security when clearing customs, but at least don’t put connections at the back of the line - we can’t choose to arrive 2 or 3 hours early.

[thenoflyzone]

A few years back I was booked on a YUL-YOW-DCA run. Once I arrived at the airport, there was room on YUL-DCA non stop, so I changed my flight. But I’m sure a decent amount of people from YUL connect in YOW to save a few bucks to New York or Washington.

[MountainView]

Originally Posted by casper

YYJ is underserved. Flights most filled and frequently sold out if your trying to book last minute. YYJ needs more flights. Porter is a welcome addition.

It definitely is. In the summer, I usually fly monthly to the Island. In 2017 I hit almost every port, YYJ, YQQ, YCD, YBL (outbound) and even YZT (outbound). [as an aside, I love the Pacific Coastal flights and small airports]

The Island does very well in the summer months with tourists from the east. YOW used to have WestJet 1 or 2 weekly in the summer, as well as Flair. I was flying for work, so needed to fly weekday, but if a direct flight could work on weekends, I'm sure Porter would give it a go if they are OK with 50% LF daily.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by casper

In the summer I was on the YVR-YOW flight. It was one of the widebody, left late, so there were quite a few passengers worried about their connection to Quebec City. I would not have expected YOW being a connecting airport for AC but clearly it is.

Pre-pandemic, when AC/UA were at +65 daily YOW departures, AC/UA would have probably had 10-12% of their YOW traffic as connecting. While no flights were banked, like PD's slowly building, there were enough flights coming & going throughout the day that there was a decent amount of connections. Even WS used to have a limited number of connections at YOW. AC/UA still have YOW connections, but it's not what it used to be. Any non-hub multi-destination city for AC or WS (primarily YEG, YOW, YWG & YHZ) will have some connecting traffic on those airlines. Not everyone connects over a hub.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

Yup for sure, but those increase frequencies have taken up all those Dash 8 hours or are there some to spare (and as a result something else can be added)?

Since you were curious, here's how many DH4 FINs of complete and partial slack PD has at present. While watching the NFL playoffs, I threw this together (Fin # assignments are hypothetical; 08JUL24 used):

Fin # 801
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2570 YQG 0700 YTZ 0756
2125 YTZ 0850 EWR 1020
2126 EWR 1105 YTZ 1250
2509 YTZ 1335 YQB 1508
2510 YQB 1555 YTZ 1742
2617 YTZ 1835 YTS 1956


Fin # 802
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2630 YQT 0815 YTZ 1018
2471 YTZ 1230 YUL 1345
2472 YUL 1430 YTZ 1556
2483 YTZ 1645 YUL 1800
2484 YUL 1835 YTZ 2001
2691 YTZ 2050 YAM 2209


Fin # 803
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2682 YAM 0720 YTZ 0839
2387 YTZ 0920 MDW 1007
2388 MDW 1105 YTZ 1347
2725 YTZ 1425 IAD 1552
2726 IAD 1720 YTZ 1850
2577 YTZ 1945 YQG 2045


Fin # 804
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2610 YTS 0750 YTZ 0914
2941 YTZ 0955 BOS 1132
2942 BOS 1220 YTZ 1413
2393 YTZ 1530 MDW 1617
2394 MDW 1705 YTZ 1957
2147 YTZ 2040 EWR 2210


Fin # 805
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2532 YSB 0805 YTZ 0908
2127 YTZ 1000 EWR 1130
2128 EWR 1210 YTZ 1355
2137 YTZ 1500 EWR 1630
2138 EWR 1715 YTZ 1900
2949 YTZ 1940 BOS 2117


Fin # 806
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2384 MDW 0800 YTZ 1042
2133 YTZ 1250 EWR 1420
2134 EWR 1500 YTZ 1645
2303 YTZ 1730 YFC 2030


Fin # 807
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2118 EWR 0650 YTZ 0835
2217 YTZ 0930 YOW 1029
2373 YOW 1310 YQM 1552
2374 YQM 1630 YOW 1725
2369 YOW 1815 YYG 2112


Fin # 808
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2120 EWR 0750 YTZ 0935
2719 YTZ 1010 IAD 1137
2720 IAD 1300 YTZ 1430
2259 YTZ 1530 YOW 1629
2260 YOW 1710 YTZ 1814
2541 YTZ 1855 YSB 1955


Fin # 809
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2121 YTZ 0645 EWR 0815
2122 EWR 0855 YTZ 1040
2633 YTZ 1135 YQT 1339
2634 YQT 1420 YTZ 1623
2141 YTZ 1710 EWR 1840
2142 EWR 1930 YTZ 1915
2275 YTZ 2030 YOW 2129


Fin # 810
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2938 BOS 0815 YTZ 1008
2129 YTZ 1100 EWR 1230
2130 EWR 1310 YTZ 1455
2637 YTZ 1645 YQT 1849
2638 YQT 1930 YTZ 2133


Fin # 811
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2280 YHZ 0825 YTZ 1020
2463 YTZ 1100 YUL 1215
2466 YUL 1250 YTZ 1416
2287 YTZ 1645 YHZ 1950


Fin # 812
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2304 YFC 0900 YTZ 1020
2293 YTZ 1115 YQM 1428
2294 YQM 1515 YTZ 1654
2947 YTZ 1750 BOS 1927
2948 BOS 2015 YTZ 2208


Fin # 813
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2452 YUL 0700 YTZ 0825
2631 YTZ 0915 YQT 1119
2632 YQT 1200 YTZ 1403
2473 YTZ 1445 YUL 1600
2476 YUL 1645 YTZ 1811
2639 YTZ 1900 YQT 2104


Fin # 814
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2206 YOW 0710 YTZ 0814
2461 YTZ 0850 YUL 1005
2460 YUL 1045 YTZ 1211
2135 YTZ 1400 EWR 1530
2136 EWR 1610 YTZ 1755
2269 YTZ 1855 YOW 1954
2377 YOW 2035 YQM 2317


Fin # 815
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2360 YYG 0930 YOW 1040
2224 YOW 1130 YTZ 1234
2635 YTZ 1325 YQT 1529
2636 YQT 1610 YTZ 1813
2145 YTZ 1925 EWR 2055


Fin # 816
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2370 YQM 0715 YOW 0810
2210 YOW 0850 YTZ 0954
2683 YTZ 1035 YAM 1154
2684 YAM 1235 YTZ 1354
2249 YTZ 1430 YOW 1529
2339 YOW 1610 EWR 1740
2340 EWR 1825 YOW 2007
2268 YOW 2055 YTZ 2159


Fin # 817
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2341 YOW 0830 BOS 1000 <-- Could easily fit a YQB-YOW 0625-0745 leg with Fin #819 RON below
2940 BOS 1045 YTZ 1238
2945 YTZ 1330 BOS 1507
2346 BOS 1555 YOW 1724
2355 YOW 1825 YQT 2047


Fin # 818
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2323 YOW 0755 EWR 0925
2324 EWR 1000 YOW 1142
2363 YOW 1240 YYG 1537
2364 YYG 1620 YOW 1730
2262 YOW 1855 YTZ 1959
2397 YTZ 2050 MDW 2137


Fin # 819
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2350 YQT 0745 YOW 1003
2375 YOW 1045 YFC 1312
2380 YFC 1355 YOW 1434
2258 YOW 1525 YTZ 1629
2265 YTZ 1715 YOW 1814 <-- Mighty early RON. Could easily fit a YQB RON with Fin #817


Fin # 820
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2939 YTZ 0720 BOS 0857
2342 BOS 0945 YOW 1114
2327 YOW 1200 EWR 1330
2328 EWR 1410 YOW 1552
2371 YOW 1655 YFC 1922
2376 YFC 2005 YOW 2044


Fin # 821
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2205 YTZ 0720 YOW 0819
2351 YOW 0955 YQT 1217
2352 YQT 1300 YOW 1518
2345 YOW 1615 BOS 1745
2946 BOS 1830 YTZ 2023


Fin # 822
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2457 YTZ 0700 YUL 0815
2454 YUL 0855 YTZ 1021
2219 YTZ 1130 YOW 1229
2248 YOW 1315 YTZ 1419
2485 YTZ 1800 YUL 1915
2486 YUL 2055 YTZ 2221


Fin # 823
Flight # From Dep To Arr
2283 YTZ 0945 YHZ 1250 <-- Enough time to add a daily YHZ-YJT (ex-PD), YDF or YQY in between 2283 & 2284 without any schedule adjustments
2284 YHZ 1755 YTZ 1950
2487 YTZ 2120 YUL 2235


Fin # 824
Flight # From Dep To Arr
NO OPS


Fin # 825
Flight # From Dep To Arr
NO OPS


Fin # 826
Flight # From Dep To Arr
NO OPS


Fin # 827
Flight # From Dep To Arr
NO OPS


Fin # 828
Flight # From Dep To Arr
NO OPS


Fin # 829
Flight # From Dep To Arr
NO OPS

6 FINs of slack currently for summer 2024. Even if you assume 1 DH4 is in for a heavy check at any given time and 1.5 are operational spares, that still leaves 3.5 lines worth of flying...not counting the slack in FINs 801-823.

[MountainView]

Impressive work digging up all that information. Thanks for posting it!