Canadian Airport Thread II

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I wonder. Service to YOW seems like a no-brainer.

I am kind of surprised that Porter has ignored all of London, Waterloo and Hamilton. If they did pick 1, I would say London simply because of the others' proximity to Toronto. Plus London doesn't have nearly the competition that Waterloo does with Flair. London used to have YOW with AC and now with Porter having some destinations to the east, it might work out. .

[whatnext]

Is it true LH is using Condor for FRA-YVR service this summer? If so, what a comedown from when they used to send a 747.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I am kind of surprised that Porter has ignored all of London, Waterloo and Hamilton. If they did pick 1, I would say London simply because of the others' proximity to Toronto. Plus London doesn't have nearly the competition that Waterloo does with Flair. London used to have YOW with AC and now with Porter having some destinations to the east, it might work out. .

I was thinking YKF because it's a larger market plus there's the high tech connection. Both could work, istm.

[hollywoodcory]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Is it true LH is using Condor for FRA-YVR service this summer? If so, what a comedown from when they used to send a 747.

LH / Condor don't have that kind of relationship. If anything they'd be using Discover (4Y) like they are doing in YYC.

But as far I can tell LH still has its 744 scheduled on YVR-FRA.

[JakeLRS]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I am kind of surprised that Porter has ignored all of London, Waterloo and Hamilton. If they did pick 1, I would say London simply because of the others' proximity to Toronto. Plus London doesn't have nearly the competition that Waterloo does with Flair. London used to have YOW with AC and now with Porter having some destinations to the east, it might work out. .

I'm optimistic Porter will launch flights from YHM, YKF, YXU to YOW to help feed Porters YOW Hub. They could really boost eastbound (and even westbound) traffic if they did that. Realistically, these three airports won't have other direct service from either AC/WS.

Similar to how WS utilizes YYC.

[hollywoodcory]

Another new Transborder route for S24:

UA is adding YYC-LAX seasonally from June 27. Timed very similarity to when AC was on the route. Brings UA to six non-stops from YYC.
UA1133 LAX 19:20 - 23:28 YYC 320 D
UA2209 YYC 07:00 - 09:20 LAX 320 D

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

I am kind of surprised that Porter has ignored all of London, Waterloo and Hamilton. If they did pick 1, I would say London simply because of the others' proximity to Toronto. Plus London doesn't have nearly the competition that Waterloo does with Flair. London used to have YOW with AC and now with Porter having some destinations to the east, it might work out. .

All three would work twice daily to YOW on PD DH4s. YXU-YOW existed for decades on AC until the retirement of the 50 seaters during the pandemic. YHM-YOW has never been served properly since deregulation. YKF-YOW has only ever been served by 19 seaters, but it's certainly a market that can support much more if done properly (i.e., flights timed for connections, the two regions are tech hubs, the local populations between the two is well over 2 million, etc.).

While there's some slack in PD's DH4 fleet at present, them adding another 8 used DH4s to the fleet would really strengthen a YOW hub operation and provide for regional ops at YHU in 2026 onward.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

LH / Condor don't have that kind of relationship. If anything they'd be using Discover (4Y) like they are doing in YYC.

But as far I can tell LH still has its 744 scheduled on YVR-FRA.

Whew, that’s a relief! I always thought Condor was to LH as Rouge is to AC?

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by Justanothermember

If Flair goes under, YKF will go back to being a nothingburger airport. Talk about putting 95% of your eggs in one basket.

When, not if.

The Flair CEO did an interview on BNN, and when asked about his airlines' profitability, basically confirmed they're not making any money. Or else, he would have said so. This airline is a ticking timebomb. It was also interesting that he gave the interview while he was in Ottawa. Ask yourself why an Edmonton based airlines' CEO would be in Ottawa this time of the year?

Outlook is not good for this airline.

Originally Posted by whatnext

Whew, that’s a relief! I always thought Condor was to LH as Rouge is to AC?

LH is like AC.
DE is like TS.

At one time LH used to own Condor shares, but not anymore. They are 2 separate companies.

[zahav]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Whew, that’s a relief! I always thought Condor was to LH as Rouge is to AC?

If anything, 4Y (Discover Airlines) is to Lufthansa as RV (Rouge) is to Air Canada. Condor is not a part of *Alliance or associated with Lufthansa anymore, so it operates in addition to AC and LH on the YVR-FRA route, not instead of

Interesting how UA has resumed so many routes to YYC, assumedly taking Air Canada's role after it chopped everything. EWR is the sole route that AC still operates, I wonder if they will switch that to UA as well? They probably would've done it already for S24, but who knows, UA does a lot of route and equipment shuffling.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by zahav

If anything, 4Y (Discover Airlines) is to Lufthansa as RV (Rouge) is to Air Canada. Condor is not a part of *Alliance or associated with Lufthansa anymore, so it operates in addition to AC and LH on the YVR-FRA route, not instead of

Interesting how UA has resumed so many routes to YYC, assumedly taking Air Canada's role after it chopped everything. EWR is the sole route that AC still operates, I wonder if they will switch that to UA as well? They probably would've done it already for S24, but who knows, UA does a lot of route and equipment shuffling.

Interesting that UA seems able to recruit lots of pilots yet AC doesn’t.

[zahav]

I don't think AC cut back on YYC due to pilots, it was because they didn't want to complete with WS. UA at least relies a lot on US-origin passengers and feed in the US, whereas AC competes directly with WS for domestic pax to feed into transborder flights. So UA could sustain these when AC couldn't. And UA is also operating mainline flights, I think a lot of pilot shortage was on the regional jets that used to be more common on UA flights to Canada

[zahav]

I think this summer is the first time both AC and UA will each be operating daily+ flights to all seven United hubs from YVR. SFO, LAX, DEN, IAH, ORD, EWR, and IAD all served by both AC mainline and UA mainline. YYZ would join YVR if they had LAX on UA, all other routes they have both UA and AC. YYC has more routes by UA than AC, and YUL has more by AC than UA. Regardless, the joint venture by the two *Alliance carriers certainly shows its transborder presence at the big airports

[fanofYOW]

Originally Posted by JakeLRS

I'm optimistic Porter will launch flights from YHM, YKF, YXU to YOW to help feed Porters YOW Hub. They could really boost eastbound (and even westbound) traffic if they did that. Realistically, these three airports won't have other direct service from either AC/WS.

Similar to how WS utilizes YYC.

I'm wondering if Porter has already allocated all of the Dash 8 flight hours they pulled from YHZ to YOW. If not, YSB may be an option but YOW-YXU was previously served and YXU has a larger catchment area. YKF and YHM are too close to YYZ.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Whew, that’s a relief! I always thought Condor was to LH as Rouge is to AC?

Nope, totally separate companies. have been for a couple decades now.

[q12]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Nope, totally separate companies. have been for a couple decades now.

Yeah Discover Airlines (Lufthansa) and Condor are definitely in competition.



The fact that they will both be flying A330s from YHZ-FRA on the same day within 25 minutes of each of other this summer is proof. It's going to be a race to see who gets to Frankfurt first.

Discover Airlines is bookable through Air Canada, Condor is not.

[thenoflyzone]

Interesting discussion over on airliners about AC's fleet strategy in the coming years. Rumor has it the AC mainline 7M8s are going over to Rouge, so that AC can open up a Rouge base in the west, to better compete against Westjet/Sunwing at YVR, and possibly re-establish itself at YYC. The A320/321ceo's don't have the legs and/or ETOPS certification to do YVR-Hawaii, Florida or Caribbean runs. The 7M8 does. (Around half the 7M8 fleet is ETOPS 180 certified, whereas none of the A320/321s are)

The Rouge 319s (built in the 90s) will eventually retire, and the A320/321ceos will move over to AC mainline. The A321XLRs will give AC mainline an ETOSP 180 capable narrowbody when they arrive.

Seems to make sense. Looks like Rouge might live on. Let's see what happens.

[thenoflyzone]

YUL posted 2023 full year numbers. First percentage is Y.OY. Second in parenthesis is vs. 2019.

https://www.admtl.com/sites/default/files/2024/ADM_Statsdet_2023EN.pdf

21,145,714 +32.3% (+4.1%)

Domestic: 6,591,175 +21.8% (-8.4%)
Transborder: 4,725,323 +36.3% (+4.6%)
International: 9,829,216 +38.4% (+14.3%)

All sectors, except domestic, have fully recovered from COVID. International numbers absolutely shattered the previous record, with no sign of slowing. It should easily surpass 10 million this year, with all the new additions coming online.

[zahav]

I wish YYZ would post stats, it's so bizarre! I guess we'll have to wait until Statistics Canada posts it in like 6 months lol (the 2022 stats were released 2023-07-28, so assume a similar date this year for 2023 figures). It's just annoying being able to follow every airport other than the biggest airport in the country.

Yikes that Air Canada plan for the 737s going to Rouge sounds horrendous. I think it's a terrible idea, and totally at odds with them trying to feed international flights thru YVR. There's a reason Rouge failed the first time, even before they pulled out entirely, they had moved routes like SFO and LAX back to mainline. They have grown the transborder feeds into YVR so much with mainline and Jazz (and Jazz is nothing like Rouge, contrary to what some might think, it is just a regional carrier but isn't some budget airline). There's a reason the vast majority of Rouge flights are point to point, leisure routes, and not really designed for outbound connections (inbound they get, from people all over Canada and the world going on an all-inclusive to Jamaica or something). But YVR-LAX is nothing like that, hence why it failed. The majority of the 737 destinations from YVR are nothing like Rouge's current list. Denver? SFO? IAH? ORD? On Rouge? Makes no sense. The only ones that do make sense are the Mexico flights, maybe Hawaii but not even since the last time it was a flop, and Vegas. Let's hope that was nothing but a rumour

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

I'm wondering if Porter has already allocated all of the Dash 8 flight hours they pulled from YHZ to YOW. If not, YSB may be an option but YOW-YXU was previously served and YXU has a larger catchment area. YKF and YHM are too close to YYZ.

The Dash 8 fleet still has a lot of slack. All of the DH4 time from the E95 upgauged routes was reassigned to YOW. EWR, BOS, YFC & YQM were all given an extra daily frequency.