Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The rest of the UK would probably welcome that!

The UK very badly needs federalization, in all seriousness. Canada and Australia have proven that federalism can work within the anglosaxon political system.

Different history. England (and I mean England) was always a very centralized country, since Medieval times, much more so than France ever was. It's the most centralized country in Europe (except for very small countries). It's hard to go against more than 1,000 years of history. People in the English provinces would have a hard time conceiving of running their own affairs. Also, in England (and again I mean England) people have a tendency to view local politicians opposing or just hindering the Westminster Parliament as a very bad thing. They like Westminster to rule supreme and decide things for all corners of England.

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown tried to decentralize England a bit (in particular under Gordon Brown with the creation of so-called "combined authorities", typical British administrative lingo, and "metro mayors"), but they haven't been successful so far. Combined authorities are still pretty new, and cover only a few urban areas of England.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Montréal is 1,500 km from Minneapolis, whereas Paris is 6,800 km from Minneapolis, yet it is in the newspapers of Paris that I saw this today, whereas you're right that the Québec newspapers I've checked online don't mention it at all.

It's frankly a bit odd that Québec remains blissfully unconcerned by what's going on on its doorstep, whereas it is the French across the Atlantic who show more interest in this.

Saw the news about the Minnesota flag in La Presse yesterday. Actually quite a nice design - a definite upgrade over the typical state seal on blue background flag used by about 30 other states.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thurmas

From my travels in Quebec its been very random some experiences have been very pleasant-great and guys got out and chatted about Winnipeg with me ect.. others not so much where I felt very unwelcome. Overall though I do think it would be in francophones interest to have more outreach to non francophone communities and start building more dialogue and connections with them to grow their language and maybe build new business opportunities.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I agree in general, but on this precise example you'll admit that the Anglo-cliché of a closed-in Québécois society seem a bit true. Don't you think it's odd the Paris newspapers mention this flag change and the Montréal newspapers don't?

More generally I'd say you still have some way to go to be as curious and interested in the rest of the world as we Europeans are, but that remark is valid for all North Americans not just for the Québécois.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I was making a general comment. I've lived on both continents, so I think I can compare. North American media are far less open to the rest of the world than European media (and Québec media are among the most open to the world in North America, probably due to the Francophone influence, but still not to the extent of European media).

Canada (including Quebec) used to be better when CBC/Radio-Canada was more similar to a classic Western European public broadcaster with good documentary and hard-hitting public affairs programming covering the entire world. Now the English CBC is just a shadow of its former self and the francophone Radio-Canada is still societally relevant but has opted for more pop culture and fluffy stuff to take on the private networks in Quebec.

(Talking about the TV networks here. The radio networks are better than the TV but have also diminished in quality as well.)

[OldDartmouthMark]

Everybody likes to poke fun at the over-emphasized use of 'eh' by anglo Canadians. It's all in fun, and we do use it from time to time for sure. I like to over-use it if I'm around Americans or Torontonians (lol) to annoy them, or give them an artificial sense that it's an integral part of our lifestyle/culture...

I've been wondering lately (given its vast importance... ) do francophone Canadians have a similar habitual word or phrase used to emphasize a statement like this? I'm 99.9% sure that they/you don't use "eh", as I saw Acajack mocking it in a previous post... so what is it? Or is there even the equivalent among fracophones due to the slightly different language structure, or cultural differences, or it just didn't catch on?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Lol. The Québécois forumers here will reply more in depth, but the risk in the province of Québec is too much centralization in Montréal, not too much centralization in Québec City. The governments (plural) of Québec, whatever their colors, have done all they could for decades now to decentralize Québec and prevent Montréal from capturing everything in the province, but rather unsuccessfully so far. Montréal still largely overdominates. It's a classic case of macrocephaly as geographers call it (at least in the Francophone world: macrocéphalie), which geographers usually consider to be not a good thing.

It's totally false that Montreal is neglected by the Quebec government. Quebec spends a huge amount of money on infrastructure in Montreal and environs, and the province's economic development investments are concentrated there. This is perfectly normal BTW when you consider that the metro area has almost half of Quebec's population. There are several Quebec government departments and agencies that are based in Montreal when Quebec City is the actual capital, and many ministers of the Quebec government run their departments more from Montreal than they do Quebec City. (And have offices there of course.)

As someone who lives in a "region" I don't say this with bitterness as I actually like Montreal and am even happy that one of my kids studies in the city so I can go more often. But yes some Québécois have the "la province vs la métropole" sentiment against Montreal that you can also find all over the world.

Montreal is a big city with lots of different realities within it, but when *certain* Montrealers talk about being oppressed by the rest of Quebec, they are really talking about woke progressive anglosphere globalist norms that most Québécois (including many Montréalais) rightfully resist, because it often leads to stuff like this these days:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhGqEKjt9hs

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Everybody likes to poke fun at the over-emphasized use of 'eh' by anglo Canadians. It's all in fun, and we do use it from time to time for sure. I like to over-use it if I'm around Americans or Torontonians (lol) to annoy them, or give them an artificial sense that it's an integral part of our lifestyle/culture...

I've been wondering lately (given its vast importance... ) do francophone Canadians have a similar habitual word or phrase used to emphasize a statement like this? I'm 99.9% sure that they/you don't use "eh", as I saw Acajack mocking it in a previous post... so what is it? Or is there even the equivalent among fracophones due to the slightly different language structure, or cultural differences, or it just didn't catch on?

Francophone Acadians like to stick "luh" at the end of their sentences a lot. Acajack would know more about this than me.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I'm 99.9% sure that they/you don't use "eh", as I saw Acajack mocking it in a previous post... so what is it? :

Did I really mock it or actually use it?

I grew up in the ROC and learned English there, so I actually use "eh?" instinctively like an Anglo-Canadian when speaking in English.

You'll find that francophones who grew up in the ROC and learned English near-natively there (like someone from Moncton or Sudbury) generally use "eh?" when speaking in English.

My wife and her siblings and my siblings (all ROC francophones) all do this.

They don't use "eh?" when speaking in French, though.

Generally speaking Québécois who speak English as a second language don't use "eh?" as much in English, and never in French.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Francophone Acadians like to stick "luh" at the end of their sentences a lot. Acajack would know more about this than me.

Yes, you're right about this. "Là" and even "là là" is a very common ending to a spoken sentence all across francophone Canada.

In Quebec people from the Saguenay-Lac-St-Jean are stereotyped as saying it a lot, but we all do it to some degree.

I guess it could be the Canadian francophone "eh?", though there are about a million other things that are somewhat famous in the francophone world (where we are probably equivalent to US Southerners in the anglosphere in terms of accent and speech uniqueness) for distinguishing our speech, so it's just one of many.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Did I really mock it or actually use it?

I thought you were mocking it as it came right after a post where I used it in a (intended) humourous fashion. You then used it in one of your posts talking about 'anglos', so I perceived it as an attempt to mock. However, it may not be the case as the written word doesn't contain cues like facial expression or tone of voice to know for sure (plus I don't recall seeing you use it in your posts in the past, or since - not that I monitor for it or anything ). Not that it really matters... it just made me start to wonder if there was a French Canadian equivalent...

Originally Posted by Acajack

I grew up in the ROC and learned English there, so I actually use "eh?" instinctively like an Anglo-Canadian when speaking in English.

You'll find that francophones who grew up in the ROC and learned English near-natively there (like someone from Moncton or Sudbury) generally use "eh?" when speaking in English.

My wife and her siblings and my siblings (all ROC francophones) all do this.

They don't use "eh?" when speaking in French, though.

Generally speaking Québécois who speak English as a second language don't use "eh?" as much in English, and never in French.

I see... thanks! The whole francophone/Canada culture mix with anglophone/Canada is intriguing and I think somewhat unique (which is why some of us find New B's 'authoritative' views on Canada to be somewhat annoying sometimes... but I digress...).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I guess it could be the Canadian francophone "eh?"

Aha! So there is something similar, but perhaps not universally used in the Canadian francophone world...

I think it's similar in anglo Canada as well. The reason I used Torontonians in my previous post is that some visiting associates from Toronto were making fun of our use of "eh" in some sentences. The implication seemed to be that we were less cultured and sophisticated than they, because they never use "eh" (even though I've heard them use it...).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Aha! So there is something similar, but perhaps not universally used in the Canadian francophone world...

I think it's similar in anglo Canada as well. The reason I used Torontonians in my previous post is that some visiting associates from Toronto were making fun of our use of "eh" in some sentences. The implication seemed to be that we were less cultured and sophisticated than they, because they never use "eh" (even though I've heard them use it...).

Torontonians still use "eh?" sometimes for sure, though perhaps some of the more self-conscious ones try to suppress it.

The problem is that the alternative to it, "huh", sounds really dumb. At least to my ears.

[Acajack]

In some places where francophones use a lot of English, you may also hear them say at the end of a sentence, when speaking in English, "there" or "there there". Sometimes it sounds like "dair dair". Which is basically a literal translation of "là là".

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Lol. The Québécois forumers here will reply more in depth, but the risk in the province of Québec is too much centralization in Montréal, not too much centralization in Québec City. The governments (plural) of Québec, whatever their colors, have done all they could for decades now to decentralize Québec and prevent Montréal from capturing everything in the province, but rather unsuccessfully so far. Montréal still largely overdominates. It's a classic case of macrocephaly as geographers call it (at least in the Francophone world: macrocéphalie), which geographers usually consider to be not a good thing.

I am québécois myself (originally from mtl-est), and my views are pretty common with people here. There have been times where the province seemed like a partner, and other times when it seemed antagonistic and threatening. It is getting hard to remember the last time it felt like QC was on our side, culturally, economically, etc. *Some* people who desperately want to be part of the regional culture would disagree I am sure, but they are usually those who came here from regions, suburbs, etc as adults and who struggle with the realities of urban life, good and bad, anyway.

Anyway, things have definitely gotten worse with the CAQ, especially post-covid.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In some places where francophones use a lot of English, you may also hear them say at the end of a sentence, when speaking in English, "there" or "there there". Sometimes it sounds like "dair dair". Which is basically a literal translation of "là là".

Odd. I thought I’ve heard “hein” too.
“C’est beau, hein?”

[Acajack]

It's worth mentioning that the current public enemy number one for *some* Montrealers, François Legault, is originally from Ste-Anne-de-Bellevue on Montreal island where he grew up, and lived almost all his adult life in Outremont which is posh but even more central Montreal.

He is as (Franco-)Montréalais as they come.

And the chouchou of globalist woke Montrealers, Manon Massé of Québec solidaire, is from a small town in the Eastern Townships, and speaks with a mix of a rural Québécois and east end Montreal blue collar accent.

As always, life is full of nuances.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Odd. I thought I’ve heard “hein” too.
“C’est beau, hein?”

Yes, that's definitely out there as well.

Sometimes the "hein" sounds like "han".

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Zeej

Saw the news about the Minnesota flag in La Presse yesterday. Actually quite a nice design - a definite upgrade over the typical state seal on blue background flag used by about 30 other states.

Yeah the design is better, but I see no point in removing the French motto. It's petty.

[thebasketballgeek]

I believe you can get by on day to day life in Québec just by using “Bah Ouais” after every response. It’s so versatile as you can convey entirely different meanings depending on how long your bah ouais is. I once heard someone use it like baaaaaaaaah ouuuaaaais for 5 seconds and I thought it was a work of art.

Also, I need to make a calice tracker because I hear it about once every minute in a non-informal setting with the occasional Tabarnak or fuck for emphasis. I thought I swore a lot until I met the Québécois. It’s making me more of a Francophile by the day.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I've been wondering lately (given its vast importance... ) do francophone Canadians have a similar habitual word or phrase used to emphasize a statement like this? I'm 99.9% sure that they/you don't use "eh", as I saw Acajack mocking it in a previous post... so what is it? Or is there even the equivalent among fracophones due to the slightly different language structure, or cultural differences, or it just didn't catch on?

The one word that makes European Francophones always laugh is "char" (for "car"). Only the French Canadians use that word. In the rest of the Francophone world, it means "chariot", not "car". That's soooo Québécois. (note that both "car" and "charriot" in English come from French; "car" with hard "c" instead of Parisian "ch" is the Normand pronunciation of the word; same with Normand "cat" vs Parisian "chat", Normand "castle" vs Parisian "château", originally "chastel", etc).

But to me the one thing that typifies them even more is how they pronounce "là" and how they pepper their sentences with "là", even when it's not needed. That's typical of Canada.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

I am québécois myself (originally from mtl-est), and my views are pretty common with people here. There have been times where the province seemed like a partner, and other times when it seemed antagonistic and threatening. It is getting hard to remember the last time it felt like QC was on our side, culturally, economically, etc. *Some* people who desperately want to be part of the regional culture would disagree I am sure, but they are usually those who came here from regions, suburbs, etc as adults and who struggle with the realities of urban life, good and bad, anyway.

Anyway, things have definitely gotten worse with the CAQ, especially post-covid.

Most of your post on this forum are to bitch about the CAQ. Maybe spend less time on reddit (man, you seem obsessed) and experience the outside word a bit. Always good to get out of its own bubble.