Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Maybe because the French do a piss poor job promoting and growing their language and culture and are one of the most insular cultures on the planet. Why is it the anglos fault for the French doing nothing to promote their language and culture in a minority setting in the modern era?

I think at a minimum the prime minister of Québec should send an official letter to the governor of Minnesota. It may not change the outcome, but it would shame them, and remind them that there still remains a Francophone part of North America.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Maybe because the French do a piss poor job promoting and growing their language and culture and are one of the most insular cultures on the planet. Why is it the anglos fault for the French doing nothing to promote their language and culture in a minority setting in the modern era?

Sorry, but this does not stand up to the test of reality. All the western European and new world (anglosphere) cultures are the most open cultures in the world, and this includes France. There are slight differences in the degree of openness between them but they are all extremely open by global standards.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I think at a minimum the prime minister of Québec should send an official letter to the governor of Minnesota. It may not change the outcome, but it would shame them, and remind them that there still remains a Francophone part of North America.

We don't we really care, to be perfectly honest.

[New Brisavoine]

^^Mexico would surely complain officially if a US state removed a Spanish motto from its flag (if there's any US state flag with a Spanish motto).

I guess that's the difference between the Francophone community and the Hispanic and other communities. The Francophones tend to be very passive in general. In the US I was always surprised at how little the French community reacted following the awful flood of French-bashing that followed the US invasion of Iraq in 2003.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

^^Mexico would surely complain officially if a US state removed a Spanish motto from its flag (if there's any US state flag with a Spanish motto).

Maybe they would and maybe we're wrong to think like we do. But that part of the US isn't really on the collective radar for having "belonged to us" at one point. Louisiana occupies most of the mindspace here, and to some degree the mill towns of New England a couple of hours from the border with Quebec. (Even though in the latter case they never truly belonged to us, and the francophone presence there is due to economic migration well after the US became a country.)

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sorry, but this does not stand up to the test of reality. All the western European and new world (anglosphere) cultures are the most open cultures in the world, and this includes France. There are slight differences in the degree of openness between them but they are all extremely open by global standards.

I meant more on a Canadian scale and from personal experience. French Canadians I find both Quebecois and Franco Manitobaine stick to their own and very rarely if ever break out of their own group and try to interact and make friends with people in other cultures or groups be it Germans or Filipinos or Chinese or whatever. I find other groups in Canada do try and put more of an effort to making friends and getting to know other cultures in Canada be it Indian Canadian, Ukrainians, Filipino, ect...

[drew]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I think at a minimum the prime minister of Québec should send an official letter to the governor of Minnesota. It may not change the outcome, but it would shame them, and remind them that there still remains a Francophone part of North America.

In English the head of government in Quebec is the Premier of Quebec.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But that part of the US isn't really on the collective radar

Montréal is 1,500 km from Minneapolis, whereas Paris is 6,800 km from Minneapolis, yet it is in the newspapers of Paris that I saw this today, whereas you're right that the Québec newspapers I've checked online don't mention it at all.

It's frankly a bit odd that Québec remains blissfully unconcerned by what's going on on its doorstep, whereas it is the French across the Atlantic who show more interest in this.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by drew

In English the head of government in Quebec is the Premier of Quebec.

"Premier" sounds so... 1930s to me. As in "Premier Reynaud".

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thurmas

I meant more on a Canadian scale and from personal experience. French Canadians I find both Quebecois and Franco Manitobaine stick to their own and very rarely if ever break out of their own group and try to interact and make friends with people in other cultures or groups be it Germans or Filipinos or Chinese or whatever. I find other groups in Canada do try and put more of an effort to making friends and getting to know other cultures in Canada be it Indian Canadian, Ukrainians, Filipino, ect...

I think that may be true of some Franco-Manitobains and other francophone minorities but I think that can be explained that as soon as they venture outside their in-group speaking French is no longer possible or often welcomed, and so they need to stick to their own at least a bit to avoid being completely absorbed. It's perfectly normal behaviour.

Québécois have this reputation and may have been that way in the past but I'd argue contemporary Québécois are not that way at all. They are fairly similar to Anglo ROCers in this respect now. Part of the reason is of course that there is more of a two-way street in terms of respect and now you can interact with people from all over the world living here in Quebec without having to renounce your own identity as a francophone who is at home here on his own turf and not just an annoying interloper on anglo-dominated turf.

EDIT: It's a meme in Anglo-Canada that Bill 101 closed the Québécois off from the outside world but in actual fact it was the exact opposite and opened Quebec up to the world.

[thurmas]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think that may be true of some Franco-Manitobains and other francophone minorities but I think that can be explained that as soon as they venture outside their in-group speaking French is no longer possible or often welcomed, and so they need to stick to their own at least a bit to avoid being completely absorbed. It's perfectly normal behaviour.

Québécois have this reputation and may have been that way in the past but I'd argue contemporary Québécois are not that way at all. They are fairly similar to Anglo ROCers in this respect now. Part of the reason is of course that there is more of a two-way street in terms of respect and now you can interact with people from all over the world living here in Quebec without having to renounce your own identity as a francophone who is at home here on his own turf and not just an annoying interloper on anglo-dominated turf.

EDIT: It's a meme in Anglo-Canada that Bill 101 closed the Québécois off from the outside world but in actual fact it was the exact opposite and opened Quebec up to the world.

From my travels in Quebec its been very random some experiences have been very pleasant-great and guys got out and chatted about Winnipeg with me ect.. others not so much where I felt very unwelcome. Overall though I do think it would be in francophones interest to have more outreach to non francophone communities and start building more dialogue and connections with them to grow their language and maybe build new business opportunities.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's a meme in Anglo-Canada that Bill 101 closed the Québécois off from the outside world but in actual fact it was the exact opposite and opened Quebec up to the world.

I agree in general, but on this precise example you'll admit that the Anglo-cliché of a closed-in Québécois society seem a bit true. Don't you think it's odd the Paris newspapers mention this flag change and the Montréal newspapers don't?

More generally I'd say you still have some way to go to be as curious and interested in the rest of the world as we Europeans are, but that remark is valid for all North Americans not just for the Québécois.

[Kilgore Trout]

The newspapers in Quebec are currently talking about the possibility of a general strike, the war in Gaza, the Colorado court ruling disqualifying Trump from appearing on the ballot... Honestly, it would be more indicative of a very parochial society if Minnesota taking French off its flag was big news here. People in Quebec have much more important things to worry about.

[New Brisavoine]

I was making a general comment. I've lived on both continents, so I think I can compare. North American media are far less open to the rest of the world than European media (and Québec media are among the most open to the world in North America, probably due to the Francophone influence, but still not to the extent of European media).

[gunnar777]

The problem is that CAQ supporters are all hillbilly morons, PQ supporters are nationalist zealot Reddit bitchboys, PLQ supporters are wedge issue voters, and QS people are just insufferable to talk to. Montreal really needs to separate from QC already. It's too distinct from the province at this point.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

Montreal really needs to separate from QC already. It's too distinct from the province at this point.

Exact same thing could be said about Toronto vs ROO I suppose...

In the UK, Remainers also often argue that London should separate from the rest of the country and become a sovereign city-state like Singapore (check "Singapore-on-Thames" online).

[gunnar777]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Exact same thing could be said about Toronto vs ROO I suppose...

In the UK, Remainers also often argue that London should separate from the rest of the country and become a sovereign city-state like Singapore (check "Singapore-on-Thames" online).

Interesting point and I would've agreed with your re: Toronto until a few weeks ago, when their mayor managed to get the Ontario premier to give Toronto just about everything on its wish list. It was likely that or drag out a land sale to a private spa and expose obvious corruption on the province's part.

Meanwhile, QC remains deeply antagonistic toward Mtl and seems bent on harming its culture and economy in the name of a centralized, nationalist policy.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Minnesota removes French from its flag and official seal. Another disappearance of the history of French trappers in the western lands of North America... In the end only Québec will remain (I don't think even the French language in New Brunswick will survive into the 22nd century).

https://twitter.com/bbierschbach/status/1737481235033628950

That makes you an optmist.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Exact same thing could be said about Toronto vs ROO I suppose...

In the UK, Remainers also often argue that London should separate from the rest of the country and become a sovereign city-state like Singapore (check "Singapore-on-Thames" online).

The rest of the UK would probably welcome that!

The UK very badly needs federalization, in all seriousness. Canada and Australia have proven that federalism can work within the anglosaxon political system.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by gunnar777

Meanwhile, QC remains deeply antagonistic toward Mtl and seems bent on harming its culture and economy in the name of a centralized, nationalist policy.

Lol. The Québécois forumers here will reply more in depth, but the risk in the province of Québec is too much centralization in Montréal, not too much centralization in Québec City. The governments (plural) of Québec, whatever their colors, have done all they could for decades now to decentralize Québec and prevent Montréal from capturing everything in the province, but rather unsuccessfully so far. Montréal still largely overdominates. It's a classic case of macrocephaly as geographers call it (at least in the Francophone world: macrocéphalie), which geographers usually consider to be not a good thing.