Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I just noticed your location. What brought you to Bas Saint Laurent / Gaspésie?

I did a 1 month stay in Montreal after graduating this spring and loved it, but realized I wouldn’t learn any French if I stayed there. Luckily I got a job in the BSL region and am quite happy living near Rimouski. It’s a nice change of pace (and more importantly scenery) after living my whole life in Winnipeg. I’m sure Harls can relate a little bit.

I will say that staying here has improved my French by ten-fold. Much more then years of French classes in Manitoba. I still struggle with the really thick accents and cannot understand my neighbors who speak Joual in the slightest, but I can hold simple conversations for a few minutes and mostly understand the posts on the Rimouski page which feels like a miracle.

[Dengler Avenue]

I can hold simple conversations for a few minutes and mostly understand the posts on the Rimouski page which feels like a miracle.

I wonder if having visual contexts helps.
For me, even reading posts in the Gatineau thread can be difficult. Of course, it’s a different story if we are talking about roads.

@Acajack Ce n’est vraiment pas mon intention de parler du réseau routier à chaque occasion là.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sorta. Lots of Acadian communities have effectively disappeared in Nova Scotia in my lifetime or that of my parents: Chezzetcook, L'Ardoise, Pictou, etc.

Pomquet is probably on its way out as well, as is Isle Madame.

Chéticamp and the Pubnicos areas are teetering.

The strongest community is still in Clare (Baie Ste-Marie) due to its population size and cohesiveness, but even there there are clear signs of decline.

(I was in Nova Scotia earlier this year in some of these places BTW.)

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think there is a bit of a difference between a second language you picked up, and your personal heritage language that has lapsed and that everyone expects you to speak decently well due to who you are and what your name is.

There is a substantial amount of shame and stigma associated with this type of language loss (a universal phenomenon not unique to French-speaking Canadians BTW), and as a result a lot of people simply say "screw that!" and prefer to speak English. (Or the dominator's language in other places.)

Now, I admit that this sentiment is now declining among francophones in many areas of Canada, though that's a product of people of French Canadian origin no longer speaking French making up a larger and larger share of the demographic.

Not necessarily a good thing for the future of French, but yeah you could say that the problem resolves itself when everyone speaks English.

There are no language controversies in SW Ontario around Windsor or the Peace River district of Alberta. There is a reason for that. Almost no one speak French there anymore - not even the people with names like Tremblay and Gagnon.

Fair points. I do understand where you are coming from. It's hard to watch communities change so dramatically in your lifetime.

I've been told I have French in my lineage somewhere (as well as German and Irish), but it's all so far removed from my experience that I have no personal connection to it. I can appreciate that my perspective might be different had I grown up in different circumstances, however.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Could be comparable to Quebec in 25-30 years time.

When that happens, there will comparably also no longer be an independence movement.

So, your Canada includes Quebec, it is just Québécois that bother you...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

So, your Canada includes Quebec, it is just Québécois that bother you...

Not speaking for Moncton, but I love Québécois. I hate the idea of Québécois wanting to break up Canada.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by dleung

Sounds like you'd be ok if Anglo parents or French-speaking immigrants are forbidden from sending their kids to French immersion in the ROC? Assimilate!

There are English immersion programs available in Québec. But we want to make sure that people understand and speak French first.

We often hear in the ROC that Québec is closed minded to others because we want people to prioritize French, but going to French schools doesn't mean never learning English, it means learning another language before English. In Québec, 45 % of the population is bilingual (French-English), it is 40 % if we count only Francophone. In the ROC, it is less than 10 % of the population that is bilingual, and that number includes a big proportion of Franco-Canadians who are bilingual with a large majority. So, the "racist" Québec education system produces more bilingual people that the "open-minded" systems of the other provinces. Who is closed-minded to others then?

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Not speaking for Moncton, but I love Québécois. I hate the idea of Québécois wanting to break up Canada.

I wasn't aiming at you, I was responding directly at a specific comment.

I do not want Québec to separate, but some things are non negotiable. Among then are that we speak French, we want secularism, we don't rubberstamp federal meddling into provincial affairs and we won't simply capitulate to the latest social trend form the ROC (probably imported from the USA...) if it doesn't agree with our values.

EDIT:

And we will never, ever root for the Maple Leafs.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

I wasn't aiming at you, I was responding directly at a specific comment.

I know, but I couldn't resist tossing in my 2¢ worth...

Originally Posted by ToxiK

I do not want Québec to separate, but some things are non negotiable. Among then are that we speak French, we want secularism, we don't rubberstamp federal meddling into provincial affairs and we won't simply capitulate to the latest social trend form the ROC (probably imported from the USA...) if it doesn't agree with our values.

I think that's fair, TBH. I wish the Atlantic region had as much moxy to insist on maintaining our identity, but it's in the process of becoming Ontario East...

Originally Posted by ToxiK

EDIT:

And we will never, ever root for the Maple Leafs.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Not speaking for Moncton, but I love Québécois. I hate the idea of Québécois wanting to break up Canada.

I agree. I hate separatists and their apologists, but I appreciate Quebecois culture and the desire to maintain French as the principle operating language in the province. This is important in a linguistic, cultural and historic context.

I have problems however with the zeal some activists have towards suppressing the anglophone minority in the province. There are enclaves in NB where it is rare to hear English spoken, and where French dominance is indisputable. I would like to see areas of Quebec where there is a significant anglophone population also have similar freedom to conduct their everyday lives principally in their primary language too. If an Acadian from Lameque can receive services in French from the NB government, then why can't an anglophone from Kirkland QC be similarly respected. If an Acadian businessman from Caraquet can operate his fish plant entirely in French, and file his business taxes entirely in French, then why can't an anglophone from Pointe Claire QC have similar freedom operating his small furniture manufacturing facility?

There is just something too coercive and authoritarian in the current Quebec government's approach to dealing with their anglophone minority. There isn't the same level of respect there as in NB with the Acadian population. And, this is the case even with the relatively unsympathetic Higgs PC administration in NB.

The only threat to the Acadian population in NB is demographic, not active government suppression.

Anyway, as I say, I have no problem with Quebecois culture or French language dominance in QC. There are only shades of gray difference between my viewpont and other people like OldDartmouthMark. It is not a black vs white dividing line.

I only seek fairness. Of course, what some people think of as being fair, other will see as being oppressive.....

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Not to mention Manitoba, where it was not just a question of "forbidding French at school", but it was a violent and deadly fight against the at-one-time majority Francophone population, complete with hangings and all other nasty things the Brits were good at.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-West_Rebellion

The British would simply NOT tolerate a Francophone province in Western Canada. Western Canada was reserved for the Anglophones, despite the fact Québec, with its rural overpopulation, needed an outlet for its population.

If the British had allowed the establishment of Francophone provinces in Western Canada, and if, say, half of Western Canada was Francophone today, with the Francophones making up, say, 40% of Canada's population, we would probably not even be talking of Québec separatism today. It would be a truly bilingual country, just like Switzerland, with various Francophone provinces.

I once read an alternate history murder detective story set in an alternative universe Montreal that was a huge city (like New York size) densely spread among the two islands. The basis for how this happened is that:

1) when Confederation happened, Canada was formed as a more centralized state with a stronger federal government than in reality;
2) Montreal was capital instead of Ottawa, and the area around Montreal was taken out of Quebec to be a federal district;
3) Canada chose to encourage francophone settlement in the Prairies instead of Ukrainian/German settlement, so the francophones became distributed across the whole country instead of concentrated in Quebec.

As a result of all this, Toronto & Ottawa never grew to become major cities and Montreal became the overwhelming economic hub of Canada. Montreal became majority anglophone but Canada as a whole was much more bilingual so Quebec nationalism never became a thing.

The actual story was very poorly written (it was some enthusiast online who clearly wasn't cut out to be a novelist) but the premise was fascinating.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Nah, NB and his Soviet disinformation comrades consider you completely irrelevant and contemptible. Go back to Manitoba where you belong.........

How old are you?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I once read an alternate history murder detective story set in an alternative universe Montreal that was a huge city (like New York size) densely spread among the two islands. The basis for how this happened is that:

1) when Confederation happened, Canada was formed as a more centralized state with a stronger federal government than in reality;
2) Montreal was capital instead of Ottawa, and the area around Montreal was taken out of Quebec to be a federal district;
3) Canada chose to encourage francophone settlement in the Prairies instead of Ukrainian/German settlement, so the francophones became distributed across the whole country instead of concentrated in Quebec.

As a result of all this, Toronto & Ottawa never grew to become major cities and Montreal became the overwhelming economic hub of Canada. Montreal became majority anglophone but Canada as a whole was much more bilingual so Quebec nationalism never became a thing.

The actual story was very poorly written (it was some enthusiast online who clearly wasn't cut out to be a novelist) but the premise was fascinating.

Maybe I’m blasé but I don’t find it fascinating, it’s a very realistic scenario, one that almost happened, with the only difference between the two scenarios being the exact degree of willingness to assimilate of the Quebecois.

If we assimilate then Montreal remains the Paris/London/Tokyo of Canada; if we don’t then it turns into our metropolis therefore a regional one, and Anglo-Canada needs something like Toronto to emerge and replace it.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I once read an alternate history murder detective story set in an alternative universe Montreal that was a huge city (like New York size) densely spread among the two islands. The basis for how this happened is that:

1) when Confederation happened, Canada was formed as a more centralized state with a stronger federal government than in reality;
2) Montreal was capital instead of Ottawa, and the area around Montreal was taken out of Quebec to be a federal district;
3) Canada chose to encourage francophone settlement in the Prairies instead of Ukrainian/German settlement, so the francophones became distributed across the whole country instead of concentrated in Quebec.

As a result of all this, Toronto & Ottawa never grew to become major cities and Montreal became the overwhelming economic hub of Canada. Montreal became majority anglophone but Canada as a whole was much more bilingual so Quebec nationalism never became a thing.

The actual story was very poorly written (it was some enthusiast online who clearly wasn't cut out to be a novelist) but the premise was fascinating.

Cutting out Montréal from the Province du Bas-Canada (or whatever it was then called) would probably have led to a new Papineau insurgency, and a much bigger one this time. I can't see how it could have worked. In the real world, the British authorities were not even able to detach Ottawa from Ontario, so to imagine that they could have detached Montréal from Québec is sci-fi.

Allowing Francophone settlements in Western Canada was more in the realm of possibilities, but of course like I said it was always opposed by the British Empire. Let's not forget that their original project was to extinguish the Francophone fact in the St Lawrence Valley, by drowning the French Canadians under hundreds of thousands of Anglophone immigrants, and counting on their rapid assimilation into the Anglophone population. The fact that it didn't happen is a sheer miracle, and at the core of the whole Québec soverignist movement. Perhaps "we don't live in the 19th century anymore" as some have said here, but every nation has roots and a history, and that history still largely shapes the current dynamics of nations. Québec did not start in 1980 or 2000 with a blank page before.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

How old are you?

Why do you keep asking that question?

[Acajack]

MonctonRad will be happy.

The Université de Moncton will keep its name.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

MonctonRad will be happy.

The Université de Moncton will keep its name.

I am completely ambivalent regarding this issue.

The constituency in the province that utilizes UdeM (the Acadian population) are free to call the university whatever they want.

I understand that some Acadians feel it an insult that the university name is associated in any way with Lt. General Robert Monckton (even if unintentionally - the university is named for the city, not the historical figure). This is an understandable stance.

The reason for keeping the existing name is the cost of a name change, which would be at least several million dollars, and this is money that the university thinks could be better spent elsewhere. This is a sensible decision.

This is a non issue with the anglophone polulation of Moncton. In fact, it is also a non issue with many Acadians as well (the non activist ones).

[MolsonExport]

Personally I think UdeMoncton should be renamed Université de New Brisavoine. It can specialize in revisionist history and subjective sociology.

This can be the university logo:

Huff and Puff and blow that Anglo house down.

[MonctonRad]

And, why is it New Brisavoine anyway? Shouldn't it be Nouveau-Brisavoine????

Yet another clue he is really a Putinesque agitator called Yuri from Smolensk. He should know better.

Oh, and there is already a lot of revisionism sprouting from UdeM anyway. They need no help from New Brisavoine............

[OldDartmouthMark]

Revisionist history is popular among those with an axe to grind. It makes it so much easier to stir people into action if you can make the inequities of history so outrageous that people have to be angry. This is also evident in all of the Cornwallis nonsense - every time I hear the one-sided story being pushed out there I just roll my eyes.

It works because most people these days don't bother to actually read detailed history - they just take the word from somebody they 'trust' (i.e. somebody that pushes the views that they want to believe) on the internet. It's so widespread that it affects virtually everything these days. I saw a piece on the US news of a history professor saying that a lot of the 'river to the sea' people have been getting their views from Tiktok and protesting based upon this misinformation - when he tells the participants the actual history they are often shocked and change their views. Another example is all that GOP nonsense including the election stealing attempt. Etc.etc.

Anyhow, we shouldn't be surprised if it's happening on SSP as well... it's literally everywhere.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Revisionist history is popular among those with an axe to grind. It makes it so much easier to stir people into action if you can make the inequities of history so outrageous that people have to be angry. This is also evident in all of the Cornwallis nonsense - every time I hear the one-sided story being pushed out there I just roll my eyes.

It works because most people these days don't bother to actually read detailed history - they just take the word from somebody they 'trust' (i.e. somebody that pushes the views that they want to believe) on the internet. It's so widespread that it affects virtually everything these days. I saw a piece on the US news of a history professor saying that a lot of the 'river to the sea' people have been getting their views from Tiktok and protesting based upon this misinformation - when he tells the participants the actual history they are often shocked and change their views. Another example is all that GOP nonsense including the election stealing attempt. Etc.etc.

Anyhow, we shouldn't be surprised if it's happening on SSP as well... it's literally everywhere.

I don't see how the debate over the Université de Moncton is revisionist history though.

If you look at Cornwallis well in the past they thought he was a great guy so he got a statue (and a town) in his honour, and on second glance we find out he wasn't, according to today's standards.

It's the same thing with Ryerson. They thought he was a great pioneer in education and now they've changed their minds about what he did.

There is no such debate about Monc(k)ton. There weren't any Acadians in 1963 who thought Moncton was a great guy. The university was named for the city, and while sure some may have thought it ironic back then to name a university for a guy involved in the ethnic cleansing of Acadians, most didn't bat an eye while others thought it was an appropriate snub towards Monckton to say "screw you buddy, we're still here!".