Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

The Quebec National Assembly just passed a unanimous motion on the elimination of the Lieutenant Governor's position.

This comes a day after the new Lt Gov was announced. Manon Jeannotte is a Mikmaq woman from the Gaspé region I think.

I don't think this move is anything against her personally, though I also don't know how much legal or executory impact it will have.

The federal government would have to agree, no?

[MolsonExport]

The Quebec National Assembly just passed a unanimous motion on the elimination of downtown Longueuil.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Their sympathies just tend to be odds with Anglo-Canadians (but when the roles are reversed, are really just the same).

Actually an awful lot of French people would like to get rid of Corsica. You have no idea the level of exasperation with Corsican nationalists. Just read the comments below any article regarding Corsica.

As for Brittany and French Basque Country, there is virtually no independence movement. More than half of people in the French Basque Country were not even born there to start with. Absolutely not comparable to Québec.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The Quebec National Assembly just passed a unanimous motion on the elimination of the Lieutenant Governor's position.

This comes a day after the new Lt Gov was announced. Manon Jeannotte is a Mikmaq woman from the Gaspé region I think.

I don't think this move is anything against her personally, though I also don't know how much legal or executory impact it will have.

The federal government would have to agree, no?

The reasoning is that they wanted to eliminate a symbol of (British) colonialism. How very very delicously rich vis-a-vis the first First Nations Lt Gov.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by vanatox

That is the real tragedy that happened in most provinces outside Quebec. 6-7 decades of ban on French language teaching just prevented generations of francophones to be educated in their language. French was lost for many. Many generations of kids were assimilated. Francophones would stop moving to those provinces. French was seen has a lesser language that you hide in most of the country.

I mean, most provinces removed linguistics rights to francophone and this all happened in the last century, not 200-300 years ago. The Manitoba Schools Question/Thorton act, Regulation 17 in Ontario, ban in Alberta. Those all had lasting consequences. Full schooling in French was reintroduced in many provinces only in the 70s-80s.. and in some case the 90s! In most cases, those moves by the provinces are only due to the introduction of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedom in 1982 and because francophones fought for their historic rights to be recognized... and also because francophone populations had been decimated to a point of no return. It was ok at that point for the provincial governments to give them some crumbs. French would be way more present in every provinces west of Quebec if the language had not been suppressed everywhere.

Not to mention Manitoba, where it was not just a question of "forbidding French at school", but it was a violent and deadly fight against the at-one-time majority Francophone population, complete with hangings and all other nasty things the Brits were good at.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-West_Rebellion

The British would simply NOT tolerate a Francophone province in Western Canada. Western Canada was reserved for the Anglophones, despite the fact Québec, with its rural overpopulation, needed an outlet for its population.

If the British had allowed the establishment of Francophone provinces in Western Canada, and if, say, half of Western Canada was Francophone today, with the Francophones making up, say, 40% of Canada's population, we would probably not even be talking of Québec separatism today. It would be a truly bilingual country, just like Switzerland, with various Francophone provinces.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Speaking the language would be maintained to a point, but in most cases intergenerationally the language you went to school in becomes the language you live your life in, especially if it's the dominant language of society all around you.

Also, most Acadian parents at that time were likely illiterate, so kids weren't being taught to read and write at home in French to any significant degree.

You would know this better than me, because I haven't lived it.

I will add (just my opinion) that pragmatically speaking, learning the language of the majority population (and frankly, the one with which all businesses outside the small communities operate) seems like it would be a good idea, if one wants their children to be able to do bigger and better things outside of the community. I would also add that if the parents and their forebears were able to function well in their born language without reading and writing skills, than the child would have no problem functioning in the community (kind of the best of both worlds, in a practical sense).

That said, I also understand the point you are making regarding the opportunity to read/write in French should have been available - although I would offer that it is in current times. An average anglo such as myself, with no connections to the French communities in question, took mandatory French classes in grades 7 - 9, and elective French classes in grades 10 - 12 (no grade 13 in NS, as we started with Primary, then grade 1, etc). Though I haven't used it in years, I can still speak, read and write rudimentary French if I had to, though I'm very rusty (and we now have things like Google translate, etc). That was many years ago, so I can only imagine that it's better than that now (in NS, with the option of French immersion, etc.).

I guess the point is that the French communities in NS (and other provinces) seem to have survived due to the strength of the culture, rather than the government forcing it to happen. Culture has changed, for sure, but that's also true everywhere in Canada, through immigration and changing societal values (like I couldn't have ever imagined several years ago that we would be seeing people demonstrating in Canadian streets in support of a terrorist group, about a war that's happening on the other side of the world). The point is that things change, and I'm not sure how much power any of us really have to artificially prevent that change... or even if we should. The younger generations will decide for themselves how they want to live - all we can provide is the guidance and hope they make choices that they will be happy with.

Originally Posted by Acajack

I also have trouble understanding why people always minimize the impact of the lack of schooling in French for francophones on the retention of their language and culture, whereas on the other hand if fully-funded education from K to PhD in English in Quebec isn't offered to anyone who wants it be they from Quebec, the ROC or anywhere else on the planet, it's the end of the world and worse than Nazi Germany.

I don't understand why people would not want their kids to be educated in French if they live in a province where the majority of people and businesses operate in French (similar to my comment above about NS). The only way I can see it as a clear detriment is if a completely anglo family with school age children moves to Quebec, and the children would likely lose a year or two adjusting to the language, as they would not have a clue as to what was being taught until they learned the language (which is what immigrant families deal with regularly). At least kids tend to learn more quickly than those of us of more advanced ages.

With everything said, I personally have no problem with Quebec choosing how it wants to operate. If I wanted to live there (I once considered it), but wasn't equipped to deal with the language differences, then I would just choose a different place to live (I did). Being moved there by ones' company might be a different story, but most companies would also provide support, or just not offer positions to somebody who couldn't adapt. As mentioned, I would have a problem if Quebec separated, as I highly value a Canada including Quebec, but that's another conversation.

Anyhow... I think I've beat this topic to death. Glad to see the discussion has moved on...

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Not to mention Manitoba, where it was not just a question of "forbidding French at school", but it was a violent and deadly fight against the at-one-time majority Francophone population, complete with hangings and all other nasty things the Brits were good at.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North-West_Rebellion

The British would simply NOT tolerate a Francophone province in Western Canada. Western Canada was reserved for the Anglophones, despite the fact Québec, with its rural overpopulation, needed an outlet for its population.

If the British had allowed the establishment of Francophone provinces in Western Canada, and if, say, half of Western Canada was Francophone today, with the Francophones making up, say, 40% of Canada's population, we would probably not even be talking of Québec separatism today. It would be a truly bilingual country, just like Switzerland, with various Francophone provinces.

I'm glad we've moved on since 1885...

Honestly, we can create all kinds of potential fantasy scenarios, if only history had played out differently. But it didn't, and we have no control over it. We have today, and must deal with things as they are now, so we can move on to a better future.

FWIW, I don't think Quebec as a whole is on a bad trajectory, as they have been mostly moving forward with how they want to shape their province... I personally think that this is mostly about your attempting to create additional angst among forum members (and perhaps Canadian society in general). Most of us, however, take this sort of 'outrage' with a grain of salt. I personally give serious consideration to the points of posters who actually live in Quebec (or have lived in Quebec, or have extended family there, or are from other Canadian French communities, etc etc), but tend to disregard those trying to stir up contempt from their home in 'France' (or whereever... eh Moncton? ).

Nice try, though.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

These restrictions don't apply to CEGEP (junior college) or universities, both of which are publicly-funded systems as well. As you may know, language-related tweaks to these systems made by the Quebec government over the past year or so have been highly controversial.

In France the stupid minister in charge of universities under François Hollande completely opened the door to English-only education in French universities. She claimed that "if we keep teaching classes only in French, we will never attract Indian and Chinese overseas students, and we will end up being only 5 persons around a table discussing Proust". I am not making this up!

No need to say that since that law was passed 10 years ago, the number of English-only curiculums has ballooned in French university. I wonder whether someday English won't become the majority language in French universities (it's already the case in many science departments).

The problem in France is the elites and many people aspiring to become part of the elites still have that magical thinking "English = success" and "French = language of the past, useless in business world". For example almost all new tech apps developed in France and almost all startup companies have English names. More and more customer programs have English names (for example, customer service at many companies is now "My (some name)", such as, say, the name of customer service of the cell phone company SFR is MySFR, for the TV channel TF1 it is MyTF1, even the very local company managing my building has a "My..." name to access them, ridiculous!). Recently even the French national railway company SNCF adopted an English name for their new app, it's now called "SNCF Connect".

[dleung]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

If they come from the Anglosphere outside of Canada (or anywhere else for that matter) and they chose to settle in Québec, they should expect to integrate into a francophone society. If they want to come to Canada and integrate into an anglophone society, they have 9 other provinces and 3 territories to chose from.

Sounds like you'd be ok if Anglo parents or French-speaking immigrants are forbidden from sending their kids to French immersion in the ROC? Assimilate!

Originally Posted by Acajack

Nope, just no more regressions!

Are you for preferential treatment of linguistic or racial minorities, or not? lol

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The Quebec National Assembly just passed a unanimous motion on the elimination of the Lieutenant Governor's position.

This comes a day after the new Lt Gov was announced. Manon Jeannotte is a Mikmaq woman from the Gaspé region I think.

I don't think this move is anything against her personally, though I also don't know how much legal or executory impact it will have.

The federal government would have to agree, no?

That comes after they dropped the oath to the King (your overlord and mighty ruler, Charles the Third of Greater Britain and Northern Ireland and all his dominions by the Grace of God etc.). I think that's just the continuation of that. Cutting anything that reminded that Québec was conquered by the British Empire.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I guess the point is that the French communities in NS (and other provinces) seem to have survived due to the strength of the culture, rather than the government forcing it to happen.

Sorta. Lots of Acadian communities have effectively disappeared in Nova Scotia in my lifetime or that of my parents: Chezzetcook, L'Ardoise, Pictou, etc.

Pomquet is probably on its way out as well, as is Isle Madame.

Chéticamp and the Pubnicos areas are teetering.

The strongest community is still in Clare (Baie Ste-Marie) due to its population size and cohesiveness, but even there there are clear signs of decline.

(I was in Nova Scotia earlier this year in some of these places BTW.)

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

More than half of people in the French Basque Country were not even born there to start with. Absolutely not comparable to Québec.

Could be comparable to Quebec in 25-30 years time.

When that happens, there will comparably also no longer be an independence movement.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Could be comparable to Quebec in 25-30 years time.

When that happens, there will comparably also no longer be an independence movement.

Renaud Camus' universally decried Great Replacement Theory.

It's perfectly OK to evoke it when it favours an outcome that's desirable to you!

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Could be comparable to Quebec in 25-30 years time.

When that happens, there will comparably also no longer be an independence movement.

You did not understand (which is not surprising considering your attitude in this thread). The people living in the French Basque Country largely come from the rest of France, not from foreign countries. The number of people living in Québec and born in the ROC is very small. That's why people speak of "two solitudes". In France, the French Basque Country, Brittany, and even Corsica, have a very high level of integration with the rest of the country. Large percentages of their residents were born in the rest of France. In Corsica for example, 30% of residents were born in the rest of France.

In Québec the percentage of residents born in the ROC is very small, less than 5%, and most of them are Francophones like Acajack, not Anglophones.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Renaud Camus' universally decried Great Replacement Theory.

It's perfectly OK to evoke it when it favours an outcome that's desirable to you!

The only way to avoid it is to revisit the revanche des berceaux. Is the female population of Quebec up to the task???

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The only way to avoid it is to revisit the revanche des berceaux. Is the female population of Quebec up to the task???

I’m gonna say something unpopular here.
I don’t doubt that they’re up to task. What I question is the ability (on both parties) to keep the family cohesive. That may determine whether the children will be successful or marginalized down the road.
Now, I’m not too optimistic about that.

Ps: If families weren’t that cohesive back then anyway, then there might still be a chance.

PS2: The metric that I had in mind was probably the number of Quebecois occupying federal positions.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

You would know this better than me, because I haven't lived it.

I will add (just my opinion) that pragmatically speaking, learning the language of the majority population (and frankly, the one with which all businesses outside the small communities operate) seems like it would be a good idea, if one wants their children to be able to do bigger and better things outside of the community. I would also add that if the parents and their forebears were able to function well in their born language without reading and writing skills, than the child would have no problem functioning in the community (kind of the best of both worlds, in a practical sense).

That said, I also understand the point you are making regarding the opportunity to read/write in French should have been available - although I would offer that it is in current times. An average anglo such as myself, with no connections to the French communities in question, took mandatory French classes in grades 7 - 9, and elective French classes in grades 10 - 12 (no grade 13 in NS, as we started with Primary, then grade 1, etc). Though I haven't used it in years, I can still speak, read and write rudimentary French if I had to, though I'm very rusty (and we now have things like Google translate, etc). That was many years ago, so I can only imagine that it's better than that now (in NS, with the option of French immersion, etc.).
.

I think there is a bit of a difference between a second language you picked up, and your personal heritage language that has lapsed and that everyone expects you to speak decently well due to who you are and what your name is.

There is a substantial amount of shame and stigma associated with this type of language loss (a universal phenomenon not unique to French-speaking Canadians BTW), and as a result a lot of people simply say "screw that!" and prefer to speak English. (Or the dominator's language in other places.)

Now, I admit that this sentiment is now declining among francophones in many areas of Canada, though that's a product of people of French Canadian origin no longer speaking French making up a larger and larger share of the demographic.

Not necessarily a good thing for the future of French, but yeah you could say that the problem resolves itself when everyone speaks English.

There are no language controversies in SW Ontario around Windsor or the Peace River district of Alberta. There is a reason for that. Almost no one speak French there anymore - not even the people with names like Tremblay and Gagnon.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I’m gonna say something unpopular here.
I don’t doubt that they’re up to task. What I question is the ability (on both parties) to keep the family cohesive. That may determine whether the children will be successful or marginalized down the road.
Now, I’m not too optimistic about that.

Ps: If families weren’t that cohesive back then anyway, then there might still be a chance.

PS2: The metric that I had in mind was probably the number of Quebecois occupying federal positions.

Not sure what you mean. Federal employment of Québécois has very little impact on the language dynamics of the province of Quebec overall.

[harls]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

In Québec the percentage of residents born in the ROC is very small, less than 5%, and most of them are Francophones like Acajack, not Anglophones.

Ok but we exist, mister.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by harls

Ok but we exist, mister.

Nah, NB and his Soviet disinformation comrades consider you completely irrelevant and contemptible. Go back to Manitoba where you belong.........