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  #1441  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2023, 5:36 AM
jollyburger jollyburger is offline
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Cities are leery of tall buildings casting too much shade. In a warming climate, does that still make sense?

The new buildings were just what Toronto needed. More than 800 new rental apartments, about a third of them permanently affordable. These new homes would rise on the site of an old provincial building. The problem: They were too tall. One tower would rise 50 storeys into the air, and so it would cast shadow on a park half a block away – covering about a quarter of its surface – for up to three hours a day.

This, according to local planning policy, was unacceptable. While Opera Place Park is half a block away from these new towers, city planning policy insists on “no net new shadow” on that park. So the complex of more than 800 units would have to get smaller.

Such discussions are not unusual in Canadian urban planning. While this past summer was the hottest on record, Toronto’s government – along with those of other Canadian cities – often argues that sunlight on public places is a crucial civic asset.
https://www.nsnews.com/highlights/cities...imate-does-that-still-make-sense-7929732
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  #1442  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2023, 7:40 PM
griswold griswold is offline
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People are really more concerned about shade than a severe shortage of housing and extremely overpriced homes.
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  #1443  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2023, 9:20 PM
Vin Vin is offline
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Originally Posted by griswold View Post
People are really more concerned about shade than a severe shortage of housing and extremely overpriced homes.
In a world of selfishness, "shade" and "Viewcones" are but two of the many excuses exacted on this City by those who don't want anyone else living in their neighbourhoods. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/skytrain-transit-oriented-development-towers-vancouver

Sim's mindset is to build Burnaby type towers around Skytrain stations, so he will likely exceed what the Province has mandated. That would include King Edward Station, as he has made an example of that station being way underbuilt.
And that's the best news ever. Glad to finally have a non-egoistic mayor tuned in much more to the frequencies of reality.
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  #1444  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2023, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
Glad to finally have a non-egoistic mayor tuned in much more to the frequencies of reality.
Are you talking about Ken "I'm a lean six sigma black belt" Sim? Because you must be talking about some other city's mayor because "non-egoistic" and "Ken Sim" definitely do not go together.
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  #1445  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2023, 9:22 PM
Vin Vin is offline
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Are you talking about Ken "I'm a lean six sigma black belt" Sim? Because you must be talking about some other city's mayor because "non-egoistic" and "Ken Sim" definitely do not go together.
He's the only major of recent times who strongly acknowledges the shortcomings of Vancouver, and also acknowledges the strengths of others. He is not afraid of stating the facts, unlike the predecessors who could only utter useless praises for this city.

If you think he is wrong, please go ahead and challenge this "lean six sigma black belt" mayor.
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  #1446  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2023, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Vin View Post
He's the only major of recent times who strongly acknowledges the shortcomings of Vancouver, and also acknowledges the strengths of others. He is not afraid of stating the facts, unlike the predecessors who could only utter useless praises for this city.

If you think he is wrong, please go ahead and challenge this "lean six sigma black belt" mayor.
I don't think he's wrong (although for some things I do think he's wrong), I think you're wrong for calling him "non-egotistic".
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  #1447  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2023, 11:28 PM
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A) Any praise of Burnaby has to be tempered with the fact that even the town centres are simply very tall suburban bedroom communities; ignoring Vancouver's strengths and Metrotown/Brentwood's shortcomings in any future planning is going to make Ken's mayoral career short, miserable and very exciting.

B) Unless Ken wants to create an OCP of his own for King Ed, 101% of all future density there will be thanks to David Eby and Kennedy Stewart's council (i.e. not him). They're the ones behind the rezoning of the area... not that the haters will ever give them credit for it.
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  #1448  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2023, 11:47 PM
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Considering I have not seen or heard anything yet about scrapping the QE viewcone, and Broadway Plan applications are being submitted having to adhere to the QE viewcone - it would be pretty pathetic to have it scrapped in the 4th period when it could have been added to the Plan when all the letters of Enquiry were just being submitted and ABC had their majority already.
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  #1449  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2023, 11:58 PM
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I think most of the lots within 200m of King Ed station have already been developed as well. Maybe two 20-storey if you get rid of the viewcone and 3 12-storey towers - which is better than nothing I guess
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  #1450  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2023, 12:51 AM
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The 12 story zone is pretty big, and even at 12 stories, I believe that would extend well into the QE viewcone. And the 200 to 400 meter zone could easily go taller than 12 stories. That's significant because King Edward Station is close to QE Park, so those 12 story (or greater) towers would cast huge view cone shadow across a wide area.
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  #1451  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2023, 4:34 AM
jollyburger jollyburger is offline
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I always love it when the debate about viewcones is about 600 foot towers when view cones have just as a large impact on something that is 20, 30 or 40 storeys tall.

When trees block said view cones they dismiss their urban forest canopy tendencies in favour of restoring the view so they can insist on how it's loss can continue to be enjoyed.

What if public opinion has changed? What if only a few viewcones are actually important to people? They say it's impossible and don't even consider it because it's obviously Vancouverism and special.

You can't allow "exceptions" but they were the ones creating exceptions for buildings into viewcones.



Quote:
Current Planning Process Puts 'Vancouverism' – And Views – Under Threat

In terms of urban planning, this is not Vancouver’s finest hour, according to the internationally celebrated planner behind “Vancouverism.”

Vancouver’s former planning chief Larry Beasley had choice words for the current planning process at City Hall Wednesday night, part of a two-hour talk on view cones, alongside high-profile architect Peter Busby, who’s also globally recognized. It was the latest talk in the ongoing Simon Fraser University City Conversations series. (You can watch the full conversation here.)

Beasley started by talking about the importance of the views, and maintaining relationships with developers who’d cooperated with the protection of them for the last 34 years – while building hundreds of buildings.

“And not say now, ‘well, this one developer can now ruin it for everyone and also ruin it for the hundreds of people all along the corridors... as well as the public,” said Beasley.

Beasley said the key role that the city’s planning staff should provide is analysis and thorough public engagement to ensure that major City Council decisions aren’t motivated by satisfying the individual interests of developers. He also said that without those authoritative planners demonstrating leadership, the public would have to get more vocal.

“Yes, the political bias was there, it is there from time to time,” he said, referring to his own tenure as co-director of planning, “but that is nicely balanced when you have a strong planning department that, No. 1, can appeal to the public and No. 2, can bring things to the attention of Council they may not have thought about,” said Beasley.

“And that’s what is maybe not there now,” he said.

“The planning department is not as strong as it was in those years, and that means you, as the public, have to be strong,” Beasley told the audience.

As for the potential loss of view cones, he wondered if the thousands of residents who’d be impacted even understand what is at stake.

“Many of them don't even realize that what might happen is they would lose that that view, that peek-a-boo that they've enjoyed.


“Unfortunately, we don't have a permanent director of planning right now,” he said, referring to Theresa O’Donnell’s recent departure. “We have a very good temporary director of planning, but we don't have the power and prowess of a permanent director of planning.

“And so I'm anxious that the quality of that analysis may suffer simply because the judgments about the individual parts of it will be more political than technical. If Peter Busby was brought in to do the study I’d be much happier.”

The topic of discussion was the City’s current review of the 1989 first-of-its-kind view cone policy, which protects several view corridors that allow residents to see mountains and ocean, and which has restricted building height and massing over the years. Beasley and Busby were key to the development of the original policy, an idea aimed at protecting the city’s famously beautiful natural environment as skyscrapers started to spring up on the downtown peninsula. During his time as co-director of planning, alongside Ann McAfee, Vancouver enjoyed a golden period in planning prior to the 2010 Olympics that became dubbed “Vancouverism.” In 2019, Beasley published a book of the same title.

Planners around the world took note of the city’s successful liveability and walkability, best identified by downtown’s slender towers atop podiums of townhouses and retail space. And geographical context — and views — played a key role in Vancouverism.

This isn’t the first time that the City has been under pressure to remove view cones.

After Beasley moved on, there was a review of the policy in 2009, under then director of planning Brent Toderian, who was in attendance Wednesday and spoke from the audience.

“There was massive political pressure in 2009 to get rid of the view corridors — the pressure was from developers and from their architects, who actually were saying to me and my staff, ‘people don't care about the view corridors anymore, so you should allow our project to proceed.’ And in the face of that pressure, and I think they were, frankly, testing the fact that Larry and Ann were gone. And here's a 36-year-old city planner who's the director of planning now, and we can roll over him.

“And they were testing the resolve of City Hall in the context of the view corridors. This was not dispassionate. This was an active campaign to get rid of the view corridors.

“We stepped back and said, ‘I'm not going to give in to individual pressure on individual projects... We're going to do the review that had always been promised. We're going to look at it, and we're going to test the theory that the public doesn't care about view corridors, and we're going to see if that's true. And so out of that exercise came the answer: ‘Yes, the public does care.’”


The city has 26 view cones, including a beloved one from South False Creek, with a view of the famous mountain shapes known as the Lions. A proposal to build a 56-storey tower nicknamed The Shard, developed by Intracorp Homes, would partially obstruct that view. As it turns out, the Intracorp application is also under review, which has raised some eyebrows as to why the ABC dominated City Council would choose this time to assess whether a few view cones should be eliminated.

An audience member asked Beasley and Busby if they were saying that the view cones are currently under threat.

“I think they're under threat,” said Beasley. “I look at the resolution as it was first put forward at Council. And it actually said in the resolution, the first part of it, it said, ‘review the view corridors with the intent to eliminate them.’ Now, fortunately, councillors had better thoughts and they edited out some of that. But I'm anxious that the bias is still there, and that if the staff's performance doesn't eliminate it, they'll be seen as failures and not doing their job.

“And that really worries me... I'm not sure this is a time for a review.


“The second thing is, I know there are one or two corridors where there's one or two proposals that are just hoping that those corridors get demolished so that they can do those proposals. And I know the dynamic at City Hall, between the development community and the political community, and the staff community, and I know the struggle that's there. And I'm not saying there's a bad person in this. I'm just saying there are different interests at play. And so I think we're better to say, ’let's confirm our corridors.’”

Toderian pointed out that this isn’t the first time that politics has played a role in the view cone debate. When it went to staff for a 2009 review, City Council then was also seeking to get rid of view cones. They only balked at the idea because of the optics, just before hosting the Olympics, he said.

“I think we are in another example where the public is going to have to decide, do you care about the view cones or not? And in the absence of a strong and compelling voice, I think the result will be different than it was in 2010.”

Beasley said a frequent rationale for eliminating the view cones is they get in the way of creating affordable housing. An audience member wondered if it was tone deaf to fret over views when homelessness is a major issue. Beasley said that affordable housing and protection of views are not mutually exclusive.

“I’m not sure it gives you the total cost benefit,” he said. “If, in fact, you bring architects and urban designers into the equation, they will show you how to achieve that density without necessarily having the tallest buildings on the planet.”

Another comment he hears a lot is, ‘does it really make too much of a deal if we just get rid of one view corridor?’

“And I say ‘yes,’ because every view corridor you lose is a nail in the coffin of all the view corridors. But even more important, if, as the director of planning, I said to one developer, ‘oh yeah, you can break the view corridor,’ how could I say ‘no’ to the next developer? You can't.”

There are cases where view cones do take a back seat to housing, such as the massive 11-tower project underway on reserve land in Kitsilano.

“First Nations property rights didn't exist in those days,” said Busby. “So Senakw, the development on both sides of the Burrard Street Bridge, would break a few cones. It will break view cones by the time it's built out. But their property rights are more important than those views registered some 34 years ago.”
https://storeys.com/view-cone-planning-vancouverism/
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  #1452  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2023, 5:29 AM
griswold griswold is offline
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These might be the most ridiculous ones considering the development on the north shore is already above the lines. You could build 50% taller towers along that entire corridor and still have great views of the mountains from QEP.

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  #1453  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2023, 5:48 AM
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Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
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Also conveniently ignoring how there's only three cones for East Van (Clark Park and Trout Lake), two for South Van (QE) and none west of Granville. Seems like they can really only be appreciated by the residents of Shaughnessy, Fairview, False Creek and Mount Pleasant - or anybody commuting through them by car or bus - and that everybody else has no view to worry about losing.
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  #1454  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2023, 7:07 AM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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Good article,
surprised the North Shore News picked up a G&M story.
Are they now related papers somehow?
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  #1455  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2023, 10:26 AM
jollyburger jollyburger is offline
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Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
Good article,
surprised the North Shore News picked up a G&M story.
Are they now related papers somehow?
They signed a content sharing agreement. Though the article got deleted from the North Shore News site..

https://nmc-mic.ca/2023/03/09/glacier-media-and-the-globe-and-mail-launch-editorial-partnership/
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  #1456  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2023, 1:44 PM
Spr0ckets Spr0ckets is offline
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Originally Posted by jollyburger View Post
I always love it when the debate about viewcones is about 600 foot towers when view cones have just as a large impact on something that is 20, 30 or 40 storeys tall.

When trees block said view cones they dismiss their urban forest canopy tendencies in favour of restoring the view so they can insist on how it's loss can continue to be enjoyed.

What if public opinion has changed? What if only a few viewcones are actually important to people? They say it's impossible and don't even consider it because it's obviously Vancouverism and special.

You can't allow "exceptions" but they were the ones creating exceptions for buildings into viewcones.

.......

RE : >>>>"“I’m not sure it gives you the total cost benefit,” he said. “If, in fact, you bring architects and urban designers into the equation, they will show you how to achieve that density without necessarily having the tallest buildings on the planet.”

If you bring in architects and urban planners they'll tell you that viewcones make their task harder in creating buildings with livable and workable units, which in turn adds costs to the process that the developer obligingly passes along to the buyers and the market, thus worsening - not improving - the whole 'affordability' question.

Quote:
RE : >>>" "Another comment he hears a lot is, ‘does it really make too much of a deal if we just get rid of one view corridor?’


“And I say ‘yes,’ because every view corridor you lose is a nail in the coffin of all the view corridors.



https://storeys.com/view-cone-planning-vancouverism/
And this would be a bad thing, how?

I've never seen (or in this case read) a person sound so smug and self-satisfied in his own, frankly speaking, dumb opinions on an issue that's effectively become a crisis - and one in which he played a pivotal part in exacerbating during his role as the former chief planner of the city - with all the bad housing and planning policies and zoning regulations that have led us to where we are today.

Who thought it was a good idea to stick a microphone in front of his face to hear his opinion about (saving) viewcones in the middle of a housing and affordability crisis?
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  #1457  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2023, 5:34 PM
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Changing City Changing City is offline
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Originally Posted by Spr0ckets View Post
If you bring in architects and urban planners they'll tell you that viewcones make their task harder in creating buildings with livable and workable units, which in turn adds costs to the process that the developer obligingly passes along to the buyers and the market, thus worsening - not improving - the whole 'affordability' question.

I've never seen (or in this case read) a person sound so smug and self-satisfied in his own, frankly speaking, dumb opinions on an issue that's effectively become a crisis - and one in which he played a pivotal part in exacerbating during his role as the former chief planner of the city - with all the bad housing and planning policies and zoning regulations that have led us to where we are today.

Who thought it was a good idea to stick a microphone in front of his face to hear his opinion about (saving) viewcones in the middle of a housing and affordability crisis?
Your opinion about viewcones is as valid as anybody else's opinion, and last time Council carried out a review of whether the public still supported their continuation as policy, a majority appreciated them.

Calling Larry Beasley's opinion on viewcones 'smug' and 'dumb' doesn't advance any debate on their merits, or the impact they might have on other aspects of housing, like the amount being built, or affordability.

In relation to those aspects, I would characterize any argument that getting rid of Downtown viewcones would create more housing (overall), or cheaper, as equally 'dumb'. Developers still have thousands of units approved for construction Downtown, and in the West End, and they're not building them because of the financial situation, the costs of construction, and current interest rates and how they've changed in recent years (both for their financing, and for the financing costs potential buyers face).

Compare the prices square foot being paid by buyers of Downtown Vancouver condos (where the developers had to accommodate viewcones), and the prices being paid in Downtown Toronto, where there are no viewcones. Toronto towers (generally taller), cost more. Developers charge what the market will bear. Getting rid of viewcones won't create more, or cheaper units.

You can see that in Gilmore, and other Burnaby projects with taller towers (and generally, no viewcones or significant height limits). The developers are still building them steadily, and at higher prices, because that's what buyers will pay. They're not building everything that's been approved - there are thousands of units they could be building (in further phases of Gilmore, Lougheed and Brentwood Centre, and Concord Metrotown and Brentwood, for example), but if they built more and added significantly more units to the market, their prices and profits would be threatened. Brentwood Centre towers are all around 56 storeys, even though they could go to 70 if they wanted to. The height chosen relates to profitability, and construction complexity, not any imposed limit.
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  #1458  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2023, 8:05 PM
jollyburger jollyburger is offline
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Originally Posted by Changing City View Post
In relation to those aspects, I would characterize any argument that getting rid of Downtown viewcones would create more housing (overall), or cheaper, as equally 'dumb'. Developers still have thousands of units approved for construction Downtown, and in the West End, and they're not building them because of the financial situation, the costs of construction, and current interest rates and how they've changed in recent years (both for their financing, and for the financing costs potential buyers face).

Compare the prices square foot being paid by buyers of Downtown Vancouver condos (where the developers had to accommodate viewcones), and the prices being paid in Downtown Toronto, where there are no viewcones. Toronto towers (generally taller), cost more. Developers charge what the market will bear. Getting rid of viewcones won't create more, or cheaper units.

You can see that in Gilmore, and other Burnaby projects with taller towers (and generally, no viewcones or significant height limits). The developers are still building them steadily, and at higher prices, because that's what buyers will pay. They're not building everything that's been approved - there are thousands of units they could be building (in further phases of Gilmore, Lougheed and Brentwood Centre, and Concord Metrotown and Brentwood, for example), but if they built more and added significantly more units to the market, their prices and profits would be threatened. Brentwood Centre towers are all around 56 storeys, even though they could go to 70 if they wanted to. The height chosen relates to profitability, and construction complexity, not any imposed limit.
What Toderian also said in 2009:

Quote:
"I've got a serious appetite for shifting those view corridors," says Brent Toderian, a former Calgary planner hired two years ago, who has been working hard to set new directions in a city famous for its urban planning. "The view corridors have been one of the most monumental city-shaping tools in Vancouver's history but they need to be looked at again. We have a mountain line and we have a building line where that line is inherently subjective."

The issue isn't just about preserving views versus giving architects free rein. Vancouver has used height and density bonuses to developers with increasing frequency in return for all kinds of community benefits, including daycares, parks, theatres and social housing. A height limit means less to trade for those amenities.

Mr. Toderian, who thinks the city also needs to establish some new view corridors along with adjusting or eliminating others, says a public hearing on the issue won't happen until the fall, but he is already kicking off the discussion quietly in the hope that it will turn into a wide-ranging debate.
https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=167028

You guys want to say there's nothing being left on the table in terms of density, housing affordabilty or CAC money. But then quantify it instead of just saying it's Vancouverism and somehow some sacred cow. Take every city councilor on a field trip to every single view cone and with their own eyes see what XX change does or doesn't do to the view of the mountains.
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  #1459  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2023, 8:17 PM
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I can see it both ways. Raising the QE "dome" to the Upper Levels should be an easy sell; ditto removing the three dozen little sliver cones scattered all over the seawall. The rest, however, are likely permanent.

Also bear in mind that none of the new downtown towers are going to be "affordable" by any definition of the word unless they have below-market units, nor will they impact the overall market as much as the Broadway or Cambie Plans - this is 99% about getting a prettier skyline.
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  #1460  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2023, 8:46 PM
jollyburger jollyburger is offline
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
I can see it both ways. Raising the QE "dome" to the Upper Levels should be an easy sell; ditto removing the three dozen little sliver cones scattered all over the seawall. The rest, however, are likely permanent.

Also bear in mind that none of the new downtown towers are going to be "affordable" by any definition of the word unless they have below-market units, nor will they impact the overall market as much as the Broadway or Cambie Plans - this is 99% about getting a prettier skyline.
But how much CAC are those non-affordable units contributing? Is it worth it for encroaching a view cone? Maybe not. Who knows if you don't have the data to make that decision.

This doesn't include the QE view cone but there's lots of sub-300 feet restrictions on development. How much will will the QE view cone impede any Broadway development?

Page 77 in the Broadway Plan they have the subset of areas that can impede the viewcone (except where restricted by the VGH helicopter flight path) Will these units be any more affordable than something in the core?

https://guidelines.vancouver.ca/policy-plan-broadway.pdf



https://www.ibigroup.com/ibi-insights/the-value-of-view-cones/

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