The Lives and Deaths of Cities

[Truenorth00]

Happy to see the core of Toronto develop. But most of the 905 is depressing like this:

• Video Link

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Wanted to give this thread a little bump, as it's inspired me to spend some time looking through my old collections of saved photos from mid to late-00s Toronto (ie. at the start of the current development boom).

This is a city that's obviously changed a lot over the past couple decades - in some ways for the better, in some ways for the worse; either way, for every thing that changes there's another that's lost. Here is some Toronto of the recent past that no longer exists as it was:

Great post! A few of my thoughts on these places:

Yonge & Bloor pre-1 Bloor East. It was a bit dumpy, but Roy's Square was an interesting little pedestrian alley tucked behind the buildings:

I'm not bummed out about this loss. Roy's Square should not have lasted as long as it did in the location it was in a city of our size. This is extremely prime real estate, being at the most important subway crossing and a block away from the supposedly most expensive shopping strip in the country. We're actually kind of lucky that this site and the equally poky Stollery's site across the street wasn't redeveloped into a non-descript 20-storey office tower in the early 90s, otherwise that kind of provincial mediocrity would have been cast in stone forever. We skipped that phase and went straight from something that probably belongs in an area like Dufferin and Eglinton to supertalls designed by starchitects. The businesses were somewhat vibrant, but not anything to really write home about. It wasn't like a slice of Kensington market transported to Yonge and Bloor, or anything like that.

Markham St. in Mirvish Village. It was an interesting little strip of businesses on one of those charmingly Torontonian Victorian side streets. It'll also always have a special place in my heart - the first time I ever got laid was after a night out here.

[url=https://flic.kr/p/diCiig]

LOL, well if it was your first time, it probably wasn't your best time, so don't build it up too much in your head!

But, seriously, Markham street is a bigger loss, although I think the redevelopment is in good hands with Westbank (if they're still alive). There needs to be a bit more of a nodal focal point to Bloor and Bathurst, and this development is it. I miss the Victory cafe and Suspect Video (I think that's what it was called), although the Victory cafe moved to Bloor (and I think I'm too old, and my tastes have moved on).

Yonge St. between Dundas and Gerrard. Most of these storefronts are gone, now replaced by the (former) Ryerson student centre and a condo under construction:

This one I'm only somewhat nostalgic about. This area would frankly never have survived as is, not because of gentrification or rents, but because everything that the Yonge Street strip specialized in - books, music and — - were among the first things to move online. I'm just happy this area is still vibrant and fine-grained. That pop up food market on the corner of Gould is kind of interesting, although I don't know if any of the food there is good.

Warehouse districts - Queen West Triangle, Liberty Village, the Waterfront, etc. Many of them still abandoned or vacant at the time. These have been prime targets for redevelopment since; while others like the Don Valley Brickworks or the Wellington Destructor (in progress) have been repurposed to new uses. It's hard to argue that this isn't an objective improvement, or that the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of new residents haven't added vitality to the city; but they were nevertheless interesting spaces that fostered everything from cheap studio space to raves & parties to grow ops to squatters to DIY skate parks. Made for some fun days of urban exploration too.

Completely agree with you on this. It's objectively better that these grand spaces are enjoyed by far more people, but they were great at fermenting artistic creation.

On the other hand, even if large spaces are cheap, do artists today need large, urban warehouse type spaces to create good art? It's a bit of a chicken and egg question for me, since all of the great art cities of the world have also become very expensive and don't have these kinds of spaces anymore, so maybe the culture died out because of the real estate, but at the same time - there still are plenty of cities where these kinds of spaces are practically free, and the arts haven't flourished in these cities.

My sense is that a lot of creative industries - if not individual artists - have moved out to the immediate post-war light industrial spaces in the inner suburbs. These are entrepreneurs that actually need cheap space, but it's not the same as living, working and partying out of a warehouse in a walkable, downtown area. These places are strictly business.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

But, seriously, Markham street is a bigger loss, although I think the redevelopment is in good hands with Westbank (if they're still alive). There needs to be a bit more of a nodal focal point to Bloor and Bathurst, and this development is it. I miss the Victory cafe and Suspect Video (I think that's what it was called), although the Victory cafe moved to Bloor (and I think I'm too old, and my tastes have moved on).

The new Victory location lacks most of the charm the original had unfortunately, and I've heard some pretty bad things about the ownership. The Markham St location was the first place I drank at in Toronto and will always have a soft spot in my heart. It began to go downhill before moving though.

Suspect was also great and I spent a lot of money renting obscure movies over the years. Could always count on the staff recommendations when going in aimlessly.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Yonge & Bloor pre-1 Bloor East. It was a bit dumpy, but Roy's Square was an interesting little pedestrian alley tucked behind the buildings:

There is a wonderful energy in this photo that I associate with Toronto. The built form has a lot to do with it. I agree it's a bit dumpy but it's frantic in a very 'big-city' kind of way.

[Truenorth00]

Lots of people cite Jane Jacobs to oppose things while ignoring all her writing about the density needed for vibrant streets. Luckily someone made a themed map on Census Mapper showing areas which meet the >100 dwellings per acre she suggested in Death and Life (in red).

https://twitter.com/damienmoule/status/1731770445744021840?t=i4E1qqhQqg3dsCZqCjU0-g&s=19

Tool: https://censusmapper.ca/maps/769#12/45.4228/-75.6615

[niwell]

Lots of non-red areas in both Toronto and Montreal that have very vibrant streets. In fact quite a bit more vibrant than some of the red census tracts. Jacobs wrote a lot of formative stuff but I wouldn't take it as gospel - also take into account her initial experiences were based on an area of New York that was already mostly gentrified.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by niwell

Lots of non-red areas in both Toronto and Montreal that have very vibrant streets. In fact quite a bit more vibrant than some of the red census tracts. Jacobs wrote a lot of formative stuff but I wouldn't take it as gospel - also take into account her initial experiences were based on an area of New York that was already mostly gentrified.

One can quibble about whether an area needs to get to 100 units per acre to be lively. But I think what's more illuminating is looking at all the blue on this map.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Happy to see the core of Toronto develop. But most of the 905 is depressing like this:

• Video Link

Most of 905 does not have arterial roads full of potholes and no sidewalks. Give us a break.

Here is a better example of a road in the 905:

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Doady

Most of 905 does not have arterial roads full of potholes and no sidewalks. Give us a break.

Here is a better example of a road in the 905:

The average 905 street is a 10m residential street in a subdivision. Not an arterial lined with apartment buildings. And most of the arterials, especially the newer developments, look more like that American example than what you showed. An older arterial from Mississauga isn't representative of the 905 broadly.

Did you actually watch the video or just emotionally lashing out based on the thumbnail?

[thewave46]

Thanks for the Toronto memories.

It’s almost exactly what I was going for with the original post.

Toronto is a ‘better’ city with the development it got. Hipster is right, many of the spaces are better used today and would have likely been corpses otherwise.

But the memories pull at heartstrings. Sam the Record Man and Honest Ed’s partly gave the city its sense of self. Nowhere but Toronto. Maybe the buildings and businesses popping up will be the next generation of that and I’m just waxing nostalgic for a lost age.

But there’s always that doubt. The new glass condos might be the equivalent of the ‘70s and ‘80s Ontario-generic apartment towers that dot the GTA. That generic will win, because being generic like an oversized airport is easy and a city that loves itself for itself is actually the harder thing to do. Kitschy does give a sense of place, it just isn’t necessarily acceptable to world tastes.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The average 905 street is a 10m residential street in a subdivision.

The average 905 street is a residential street? Wow, who knew. Guess 905 and old Toronto have a lot in common after all.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Not an arterial lined with apartment buildings. And most of the arterials, especially the newer developments, look more like that American example than what you showed. An older arterial from Mississauga isn't representative of the 905 broadly.

An older arterial isn't representative? Then don't post a video showing an older arterial. Simple.

I posted a picture of the 905. You posted a video of the US. That's all that needs to be said.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Did you actually watch the video or just emotionally lashing out based on the thumbnail?

I know your history. You're the one who agreed with Not Just Bikes video claiming that the only transit in suburban Toronto are GO Trains surrounded by park-and-ride lots.

Here is your post again, just in case you forgot:

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Can't attack the arguments made I guess.....

His point in the GO transit was video was absolutely right. It's insane to have acres of parking beside GO stations. Even Metrolinx knows that. It's why they have set targets to reduce the percentage of users who park n ride. It's also why they are starting to look at developing some of that land.

You're just not a fan of your mediocre suburban lifestyle getting called out. Oh well.

"You're just not a fan of your mediocre suburban lifestyle getting called out." Who's the one emotionally lashing out?

You clearly have an agenda to present suburban Toronto in a dishonest and misleading way, and even resorting to personal attacks against those who call out that Not Just Bikes — on his lies.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Doady

The average 905 street is a residential street? Wow, who knew. Guess 905 and old Toronto have a lot in common after all.



An older arterial isn't representative? Then don't post a video showing an older arterial. Simple.

I posted a picture of the 905. You posted a video of the US. That's all that needs to be said.



I know your history. You're the one who agreed with Not Just Bikes video claiming that the only transit in suburban Toronto are GO Trains surrounded by park-and-ride lots.

By the way this thread is about cities. Not the parking lots that pretend to be urban areas. Trashy
Move along with the suburban propaganda.

Here is your post again, just in case you forgot:


"You're just not a fan of your mediocre suburban lifestyle getting called out." Who's the one emotionally lashing out?

You clearly have an agenda to present suburban Toronto in a dishonest and misleading way, and even resorting to personal attacks against those who call out that Not Just Bikes — on his lies.

So you didn't watch the video and reacted to the thumbnail. Thanks for confirming.

No apologies. I'll be happy if I can avoid the mediocre suburban lifestyle where you spend half your life in traffic commuting to/from work, only to then enjoy big box stores and chain fast food.

By the way. This thread is about cities. Not parking lots pretending to be cities. You should start a "Life and Death of mediocre suburbs" thread if you want to stan harder about Mississauga.

^ Bookmark this in your file about my complaints about — suburbs.

[urbandreamer]

Drive Burnhamthorpe from Etobicoke to Sixth Line for a better sense of a typical 905 streetscape. Then head through South Milton and realize that dreadful though it was in the 1980s and 90s, architecturally it was superior to the junk they're building today, even if it's denser today. A sea of depressing sameness, beige, brown, white, grey and black. Bizarrely wide roads with density setback too far from the street. It's like everywhere is inspired by Home Depot.

[Doady]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

So you didn't watch the video and reacted to the thumbnail. Thanks for confirming.

No apologies. I'll be happy if I can avoid the mediocre suburban lifestyle where you spend half your life in traffic commuting to/from work, only to then enjoy big box stores and chain fast food.

Yeah, I'm just another just another guy living in Naperville. Oops, I meant Mississauga. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between a suburb with 1 high rise building and another with 333 high-rise buildings, right?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

By the way. This thread is about cities. Not parking lots pretending to be cities. You should start a "Life and Death of mediocre suburbs" thread if you want to stan harder about Mississauga.

You're the one who brought the 905 into this thread, not me. Maybe you should follow your own advice.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

^ Bookmark this in your file about my complaints about — suburbs.

No, I already got my own "file" of my own complaints about — suburbs. Unlike you, I don't need to use American examples and use them to present Mississauga in a misleading way to criticize it. I just present Mississauga directly as it is, no analogies needed. Do you think anyone here finds your criticisms of Mississauga more convincing than my criticisms of Mississauga?

Mississauga: Square One
Mississauga's Gateway (Corporate Centre)
Mississauga's Heartland (Town Centre)
The High-Rise Suburb
Orlando Corporation's Heartland Business Community
The North American Moscow
Snout Houses
Mississauga: The 24-Hour City
Corner Lots
Mississauga's Airport (Corporate Centre)
The Pearson Hub
Boxing-Day-in-the-Burbs
Newfound Landscapes
Mississauga: Ninth Line
Fisheye Tests
The Birthplace of Karla Homolka
Iceland / Rose Cherry Place
Strength Through Innovation

Go bookmark these in your "file" about my complaints about — suburbs. (edit: oops, all this is actually "stanning" for — suburbs, right?)

[Doady]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Drive Burnhamthorpe from Etobicoke to Sixth Line for a better sense of a typical 905 streetscape. Then head through South Milton and realize that dreadful though it was in the 1980s and 90s, architecturally it was superior to the junk they're building today, even if it's denser today. A sea of depressing sameness, beige, brown, white, grey and black. Bizarrely wide roads with density setback too far from the street. It's like everywhere is inspired by Home Depot.

Burnhamthorpe doesn't go to Sixth Line, only Ninth Line. It has a dozens of high-rises along it, including two 61 storey towers, a continuous separate bike path, and 15 minute bus service all day. Even Burnhamthorpe is not so similar to US suburbia as TrueNorth00 would claim.

Most subdivisions in Milton are built according to principles of transit-oriented development, so attractiveness of the streetscape, the idea of place to both live and work, is ignored. Most of Mississauga was also built this way until recently.

Oakville and Markham incorporate ideas of New Urbanism so they look better as places to live/work while still maximizing access to transit. But you can also see some New Urbanist elements in newer developments along Main Street in Milton. More mixed uses, less segregated uses, proper streetwall.

Brampton is an example of suburbia designed for transit with total ignorance of New Urbanism. Very high transit ridership, but very unattractive streetscape. Easy to walk to the bus stop, not as easy to walk to the store or work.

[MolsonExport]

Is there anything more soul-sucking than the sight of an abandoned RONA? Cripes, these empty shells are popping up everywhere, since RONA absorbed Lowe's. There's one in Mississauga near Winston Churchill Rd along the 401 that has been vacant for a dozen years. Another one near the 401 in Cambridge. A newly vacated one on Wonderland Road near Sarnia Rd (London). Another one in London along Highbury Road, vacant for a decade.

These stores aren't easily converted to other uses, evidently.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Doady

Most of 905 does not have arterial roads full of potholes and no sidewalks. Give us a break.

Here is a better example of a road in the 905:

This could be Carling Avenue in Ottawa.

[feepa]

or Jasper avenue in Edmonton lol (the west end of it)

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by harls

This could be Carling Avenue in Ottawa.

• Video Link

[Doady]

Yeah, it is Anywhere, Canada, not Anywhere, USA. That photo could be Lawrence or Finch or Don Mills, who knows. Who rides the bus along Hurontario or Burnhamthorpe and confuses it with the USA and say that there is no development going on. Even a cursory glance at the SSP database might tell them otherwise. Look at the list of proposals for Mississauga, Brampton, Vaughan, Markham, it is insane.