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  #5821  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2023, 7:32 PM
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You make some good points but as Trunorth says below in many cases these are names imposed and cities that changed their names. Florence is the English word for Firenze so not equivalent. Yes some groups are more sensitive than others but usually for good reason.
And Bombay is the English name of Mumbai, exactly the same. Besides these names were not "imposed" (do you imagine some colonial administrators sat in a conference room devising a name to piss off the natives? ). All these names predated British colonialism, they appeared spontaneously when Portuguese and Dutch sailors arrived in India in the 16th century and heard the names of these cities and countries. In general, most of these names (such as "Burma") were transmitted into English from Portuguese (sometimes via French).
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  #5822  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2023, 7:38 PM
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Virginie occidentale also seems really awkward to say but that's what we're supposed to use.

I think most people just say "Virginie de l'Ouest". A few might say "nous sommes dans le West Virginia".
I've only ever heard "Virginie occidentale" in France. It doesn't sound awkward at all, that's just the way it is, and how people understand it. If you said "Virginie de l'Ouest" I think people would pause for a few seconds to figure out what you're meaning, because that name is not used in France (besides "Virginie de l'Ouest" could be understood as the western counties of the state of Virginia, so it's confusing).

West Virginia is never used in France.

Thinking of it, all cardinal indications in US states are always translated (Dakota du Nord, Caroline du Sud, etc). Only local place names are not translated (so people would say "West Los Angeles" and not "Los Angeles occidental"; on a side note, don't know how it is in Québec, but in France people most always say "Los Angeles" in full, more rarely "LA" with English pronunciation, which sounds just English and not French, and never "LA" with French pronunciation).
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  #5823  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2023, 7:45 PM
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And Bombay is the English name of Mumbai, exactly the same. Besides these names were not "imposed" (do you imagine some colonial administrators sat in a conference room devising a name to piss off the natives? ). All these names predated British colonialism, they appeared spontaneously when Portuguese and Dutch sailors arrived in India in the 16th century and heard the names of these cities and countries. In general, most of these names (such as "Burma") were transmitted into English from Portuguese (sometimes via French).
A lot of names come from how foreigners interpreted names they heard from locals indigenous to the place. Canada itself is apparently from "kanata", an Indigenous word from the region meaning village or community.

At Gaspé, the locals told the French explorers that the big river near there (St Lawrence) led to "kanata" likely referring to the village of Stadacona or Stadaconé. Which was at the location of present-day Quebec City.
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  #5824  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2023, 7:55 PM
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s'Hertogenbosch in the Netherlands is Bois-le-Duc in French.

Aachen in Germany is Aix-la-Chapelle in French.
In general, when French people don't know a particular place, they tend to use the local name these days. Many people don't have a level of culture good enough to know the French names of many minor cities anymore. I remember a few years ago, the Tour de France arrived in s'Hertogenbosch, and the French journalist interviewing some Dutch people there always said "s'Hertogenbosch", "s'Hertogenbosch", either because he didn't know the French name, or thought it was kinder to these people to use the Dutch name, and it was funny how it was the Dutch interviewees who used "Bois-le-Duc", probably because they thought that's what a French audience would expect.

Nowadays with Google Maps what I find fascinating is how their teams dutifully use the French names of European places, even the less well know places, so on their maps you'll only see "Bois-le-Duc". It's an odd example of how big US corporations are reviving French names (because otherwise I think they would have completely disappeared, as I see more and more young French people insisting on using the local names instead of the French ones, like they say "je suis allé à Torino", instead of "je suis allé à Turin", which I find ridiculous in its hypercorrection). Google is not into these sorts of PCness, oddly, they only use the French names, so it keeps those names alive. I even find that sometimes they go a bit too far, for example they use French names of minor German cities that had long been forgotten (but were used until the 19th century), which gives a certain antiquated look to their maps sometimes. For example they write "Deux-Ponts" on their maps instead of "Zweibrücken", which I find funny (frankly, I had only ever heard of "Zweibrücken"... "Deux-Ponts" sounds really Napoleonic).
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  #5825  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2023, 8:24 PM
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In general, when French people don't know a particular place, they tend to use the local name these days. Many people don't have a level of culture good enough to know the French names of many minor cities anymore. I remember a few years ago, the Tour de France arrived in s'Hertogenbosch, and the French journalist interviewing some Dutch people there always said "s'Hertogenbosch", "s'Hertogenbosch", either because he didn't know the French name, or thought it was kinder to these people to use the Dutch name, and it was funny how it was the Dutch interviewees who used "Bois-le-Duc", probably because they thought that's what a French audience would expect.

Nowadays with Google Maps what I find fascinating is how their teams dutifully use the French names of European places, even the less well know places, so on their maps you'll only see "Bois-le-Duc". It's an odd example of how big US corporations are reviving French names (because otherwise I think they would have completely disappeared, as I see more and more young French people insisting on using the local names instead of the French ones, like they say "je suis allé à Torino", instead of "je suis allé à Turin", which I find ridiculous in its hypercorrection). Google is not into these sorts of PCness, oddly, they only use the French names, so it keeps those names alive. I even find that sometimes they go a bit too far, for example they use French names of minor German cities that had long been forgotten (but were used until the 19th century), which gives a certain antiquated look to their maps sometimes. For example they write "Deux-Ponts" on their maps instead of "Zweibrücken", which I find funny (frankly, I had only ever heard of "Zweibrücken"... "Deux-Ponts" sounds really Napoleonic).
Saarbrücken = Ponts-sur-la-Sarre?
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  #5826  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2023, 8:40 PM
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Saarbrücken = Ponts-sur-la-Sarre?
Non. Sarrebruck. And it's a widely used name (also appearing on road signs).

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  #5827  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2023, 8:46 PM
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I'll make sure not to take that road - don't want my car to explode!
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  #5828  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2023, 8:59 PM
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Can you drive manual anyway?
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  #5829  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2023, 9:02 PM
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Can you drive manual anyway?
Of course! Pour qui tu me prends?
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  #5830  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2023, 2:14 PM
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Nobody imposes names in Hindi, Tamil, Bengali, etc to Hindophones, Tamilophones, Bengalophones, etc. What words Western languages choose to use is up to them. No Chinese person makes a fuss because Anglophones call their country "China" and not "Zhongguo". They insisted on Anglophones calling their capital "Beijing" instead of "Peking" however, so it's rather inconsistent in terms of attitude.

In any case, how Anglophones, Francophones, etc choose to name foreign places is up to them, and should be nobody's business except Anglophones, Francophones, etc.

In the Francophone world, the only country that has made a fuss about which names should be used in French is Algeria (which is kind of ironic since at the same time the Algerian government is doing its best to destroy the French language in Algeria, so why do they care which words Francophones use??). That insistence worked only for one Algerian city, Bône, which is now called Annaba in French (Bône is considered colonial and thus avoided, despite the fact it's a beautiful name, and just as legit as Annaba to name the Christian city that was originally called Hippone, hometown of Christianity's most famous thinker, Saint Augustine). They tried also to impose "Wahran" instead of "Oran", but it never worked, people still use Oran. Same for Constantine ("Qacentina"), it didn't work. As for Algiers, the Algerian government never even tried to impose the Arabic name.

Apart from that, and with the exception of Saigon now renamed Hô Chi Minh-Ville, I can't think of any example of renaming in French (except in the former Belgian Congo, where various cities have been renamed, but like Saigon, it's not a mere orthography change, it's a full name change, such as Léopoldville becoming Kinshasa).

In any case the problem with French now is the abuse of English, not the fact the French language doesn't use the changed orthography of foreign places. Mexico City (called "Mexico" in French) is increasingly called "Mexico City" by stupid young French people (in French the country is "le Mexique", and the capital city is "Mexico", no article, but I can't count the number of people or even media articles which say "Mexico City", as in "Les meilleurs restaurants à Mexico City"). Likewise, "Capetown", which is "Le Cap" in French, is increasingly called "Capetown" by stupid young French people. It shows a great lack of culture, and complete domination of Anglophone culture. This, in a bizarre way, has even extended to Beijing, with more and more young people and some media saying "Beijing", not because of Chinese government recommendation, but because of English influence. It's ridiculous because no Francophone knows how to pronounce "Beijing" correctly, so they might as well continue to say "Pékin", it won't be any more "foreign sounding" than "Beijing" pronounced by a Francophone who has never studied Chinese.

Oddly I don't see the new Indian names used in French (except Chennai, which has gained some traction as of late). Even young people keep saying Bombay and Calcutta, despite the influence of English. Maybe because "Mumbai" and "Kolkata" just sound ugly in French, I don't know. Same for "Myanmar", it sounds rather ugly in French. Whereas "Bombay", "Calcutta", and "Birmanie" have positive connotations associated to them, a whiff of Orient and antiquity, etc.
What's wrong with referring to Cape Town as Cape Town; considering Cape Town is the official name of the city? It's also known as Kaapstad (Afrikaans) and iKapa (Xhosa). A Capetonian would look at you with blank stares calling their city Le Cap.

What's up with St. John's being called Saint Jean or Nova Scotia being called Nouvelle Ecosse? The Latin is not anglicized as New Scotland.
     
     
  #5831  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2023, 2:19 PM
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What's wrong with referring to Cape Town as Cape Town; considering Cape Town is the official name of the city? It's also known as Kaapstad (Afrikaans) and iKapa (Xhosa). A Capetonian would look at you with blank stares calling their city Le Cap.

What's up with St. John's being called Saint Jean or Nova Scotia being called Nouvelle Ecosse? The Latin is not anglicized as New Scotland.
There is nothing wrong either way. People who speak different languages will on occasion use different names from the local one.

Right here on SSP yesterday someone referred to the Quebec city of Sept-Îles as "Seven Islands". It sounds off for sure but not something to get all irate about for sure.
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  #5832  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2023, 4:33 PM
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As others have pointed out, when your location has its own name in fellow languages, it's a mark of importance.

Londres, vs London (Ontario) for a previously mentioned example.

Examples abound: Athènes (Greece), vs "Athens" (in Georgia); Troie, the Greek city in present day Turkey, vs Troy, NY; etc.

Translation of a name inescapably means the location exists in the cultural consciousness of the other culture. A random Chinese city has no name in other cultures, so they default to using the one and only local name; their capital (among other prominent cities) does have its own name. Etc.
     
     
  #5833  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2023, 4:51 PM
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As others have pointed out, when your location has its own name in fellow languages, it's a mark of importance.

Londres, vs London (Ontario) for a previously mentioned example.

Examples abound: Athènes (Greece), vs "Athens" (in Georgia); Troie, the Greek city in present day Turkey, vs Troy, NY; etc.

Translation of a name inescapably means the location exists in the cultural consciousness of the other culture. A random Chinese city has no name in other cultures, so they default to using the one and only local name; their capital (among other prominent cities) does have its own name. Etc.
Or, the spelling could be the same, but, the pronunciation entirely different. Paris vs Paree for example.

I agree. Differences in spelling or pronunciation across cultures means that the city is culturally and historically significant. It should be seen as a badge of honour.
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  #5834  
Old Posted Nov 28, 2023, 5:27 PM
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What's wrong with referring to Cape Town as Cape Town; considering Cape Town is the official name of the city? It's also known as Kaapstad (Afrikaans) and iKapa (Xhosa). A Capetonian would look at you with blank stares calling their city Le Cap.
Yeah, pretend you haven't understood what I meant. That, my dear Sir, is acting like a troll.
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  #5835  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2023, 1:49 AM
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“Fin de la route diversee”
C’est là qu’on sait qu’on est en Colombie Britannique.
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  #5836  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2023, 11:12 AM
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“Fin de la route diversee”
C’est là qu’on sait qu’on est en Colombie Britannique.
Oulala. Mais je suis certain que c'est un segment qui traverse un parc national, donc de responsabilité fédérale.

Cette province n'a pas d'affichage bilingue sur les routes qui lui appartiennent.
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  #5837  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2023, 1:23 PM
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Oulala. Mais je suis certain que c'est un segment qui traverse un parc national, donc de responsabilité fédérale.

Cette province n'a pas d'affichage bilingue sur les routes qui lui appartiennent.
 oui je suis conscient que ce tronçon appartient au gouvernement fédéral. J’ai tout de même l’impression que le signe est fait par un Ouest-canadien.
Ce qui est étrange, c’est que le français dans le signe à droit est correct.
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  #5838  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2023, 2:07 PM
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 oui je suis conscient que ce tronçon appartient au gouvernement fédéral. J’ai tout de même l’impression que le signe est fait par un Ouest-canadien.
Ce qui est étrange, c’est que le français dans le signe à droit est correct.
C'est aussi un petit anglicisme du côté droit, mais grammaticalement correct et facile à comprendre.

Normalement on dit "chaussées séparées".
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  #5839  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2023, 2:19 PM
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C'est aussi un petit anglicisme du côté droit, mais grammaticalement correct et facile à comprendre.

Normalement on dit "chaussées séparées".
Même en langue familière??
Je me rends compte de la différence entre le langage du MTO et celui du MTQ, tout à fait. Par exemple, on dit “rampe d’entrée/de sortie” en Ontario, mais au Québec, c’est une “bretelle d’accès/de sortie”.
Je ne sais pas si on dit “viaduc” ou “pont d’étagement” en Ontario.
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  #5840  
Old Posted Dec 2, 2023, 2:46 PM
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Oui en langue familière on entend parfois route divisée, mais plus souvent on dit tout simplement "autoroute".

Comme dans la phrase "l'A-50 n'est pas une vraie autoroute "

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