Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

So you mean if the Italians call Paris as "Parigi", that means they have no respect for other cultures? What about the Anglophones who call the city of Dar-el-Beida as "Casablanca", or who call the city of Firenze as "Florence". No respect for other cultures?

Dar-el-Beida / Casablanca is the closest example.

In a lot of Asia, and particularly the subcontinent, they see old names as those imposed by colonizers. So there are most definitely people (particularly on the right in those places) who see the use of old names as disrespectful.

And there's a difference in context too. A local using the old name is very different from a foreign tourist or government agency (particularly from the former colonial power)using the old name. One can be seen as a term of affection. Another is seen as attempting to whitewash colonialism. I guarantee you if you (as a "Frenchman" (allegedly)) try to use "Madras" in Chennai it will not be seen the same way as a local using the same.

[kwoldtimer]

Isn't London, ON known as "London" in Quebec?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Isn't London, ON known as "London" in Quebec?

Correct. The name of the city in Ontario is never translated to Londres in French.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

Yea they're too far deep now, like temporarily blocking men from running for QS nominations

Québec solidaire exclura les hommes en cas d’élection partielle
https://www.journaldequebec.com/2023/11/25/qs-exclura-les-hommes-en-cas-delection-partielle

New Brisavoine, you'll love this tidbit:

«On ne détruira pas le patriarcat à coup de suggestions», a lâché au micro Maïka Sondarjee, une militante solidaire de Hull. Elle et l’ensemble des délégués du parti réunis en congrès ont adopté à majorité une proposition qui règle la question des hommes jusqu'au prochain congrès, à l'automne 2024.

D'ici là, seules les femmes et les personnes non binaires auront le droit de se présenter sous la bannière solidaire.

Sounds like something taken straight out of the federal NDP playbook. So it only furthers perceptions that they are simply the Quebec provincial branch of Jagmeet Singh's party.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

In a lot of Asia, and particularly the subcontinent, they see old names as those imposed by colonizers. So there are most definitely people (particularly on the right in those places) who see the use of old names as disrespectful.

Nobody imposes names in Hindi, Tamil, Bengali, etc to Hindophones, Tamilophones, Bengalophones, etc. What words Western languages choose to use is up to them. No Chinese person makes a fuss because Anglophones call their country "China" and not "Zhongguo". They insisted on Anglophones calling their capital "Beijing" instead of "Peking" however, so it's rather inconsistent in terms of attitude.

In any case, how Anglophones, Francophones, etc choose to name foreign places is up to them, and should be nobody's business except Anglophones, Francophones, etc.

In the Francophone world, the only country that has made a fuss about which names should be used in French is Algeria (which is kind of ironic since at the same time the Algerian government is doing its best to destroy the French language in Algeria, so why do they care which words Francophones use??). That insistence worked only for one Algerian city, Bône, which is now called Annaba in French (Bône is considered colonial and thus avoided, despite the fact it's a beautiful name, and just as legit as Annaba to name the Christian city that was originally called Hippone, hometown of Christianity's most famous thinker, Saint Augustine). They tried also to impose "Wahran" instead of "Oran", but it never worked, people still use Oran. Same for Constantine ("Qacentina"), it didn't work. As for Algiers, the Algerian government never even tried to impose the Arabic name.

Apart from that, and with the exception of Saigon now renamed Hô Chi Minh-Ville, I can't think of any example of renaming in French (except in the former Belgian Congo, where various cities have been renamed, but like Saigon, it's not a mere orthography change, it's a full name change, such as Léopoldville becoming Kinshasa).

In any case the problem with French now is the abuse of English, not the fact the French language doesn't use the changed orthography of foreign places. Mexico City (called "Mexico" in French) is increasingly called "Mexico City" by stupid young French people (in French the country is "le Mexique", and the capital city is "Mexico", no article, but I can't count the number of people or even media articles which say "Mexico City", as in "Les meilleurs restaurants à Mexico City"). Likewise, "Capetown", which is "Le Cap" in French, is increasingly called "Capetown" by stupid young French people. It shows a great lack of culture, and complete domination of Anglophone culture. This, in a bizarre way, has even extended to Beijing, with more and more young people and some media saying "Beijing", not because of Chinese government recommendation, but because of English influence. It's ridiculous because no Francophone knows how to pronounce "Beijing" correctly, so they might as well continue to say "Pékin", it won't be any more "foreign sounding" than "Beijing" pronounced by a Francophone who has never studied Chinese.

Oddly I don't see the new Indian names used in French (except Chennai, which has gained some traction as of late). Even young people keep saying Bombay and Calcutta, despite the influence of English. Maybe because "Mumbai" and "Kolkata" just sound ugly in French, I don't know. Same for "Myanmar", it sounds rather ugly in French. Whereas "Bombay", "Calcutta", and "Birmanie" have positive connotations associated to them, a whiff of Orient and antiquity, etc.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Isn't London, ON known as "London" in Quebec?

This is how Google Map in French looks like. Notice "Détroit", "Pennsylvanie", "New York" (never "city" or "ville"), etc. In the past, "New York" was officially called "Neuve-York" in French, but the name has now been discarded, it's become "New York" ("je vais à New York", etc). The state is always called "l'état de New York" as the map shows. New England is called "la Nouvelle Angleterre" always, even by young people. On other hand the Midwest is "le Midwest", never translated, but the Far West is called "l'Ouest américain", never "le Far West" ("le Far West" is used only in a historical context to refer to the western lawless wildernesses in the 19th century). So today in 2023 you will go "faire un voyage dans l'Ouest américain", but you can say that in the 19th century "c'était la loi du Far West" (meaning it was some lawless frontier). "L'Ouest américain" is always distinguished from "l'Ouest canadien" in French (the former refers to the Western USA only). Alles klar?

PS : Niagara Falls is "les chutes du Niagara" in French (as in "nous allons voir les chutes du Niagara cet été"), although I've heard some Québécois say "Niagara Falls" ("on s'en va à Niagara Falls"), but the Francophones of Europe would never say "Niagara Falls".

[Acajack]

Quebec media are supposed to use "Detroit" for Detroit, as opposed to Détroit, but the version with the accent slips in all the time anyway.

Here it is without the accent aigu:

https://www.journaldequebec.com/2023/08/31/red-wings--lequipe-de-jeff-petry-jouera-t-elle-en-series

[Acajack]

In terms of India's capital, I've never heard anyone in French refer it to anything other than "New Delhi". Never "Nouveau-Delhi" (French) nor "Nai Dilli" (Hindi).

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Nobody imposes names in Hindi, Tamil, Bengali, etc to Hindophones, Tamilophones, Bengalophones, etc. What words Western languages choose to use is up to them. No Chinese person makes a fuss because Anglophones call their country "China" and not "Zhongguo". They insisted on Anglophones calling their capital "Beijing" instead of "Peking" however, so it's rather inconsistent in terms of attitude.

In any case, how Anglophones, Francophones, etc choose to name foreign places is up to them, and should be nobody's business except Anglophones, Francophones, etc.

In the Francophone world, the only country that has made a fuss about which names should be used in French is Algeria (which is kind of ironic since at the same time the Algerian government is doing its best to destroy the French language in Algeria, so why do they care which words Francophones use??). That insistence worked only for one Algerian city, Bône, which is now called Annaba in French (Bône is considered colonial and thus avoided, despite the fact it's a beautiful name, and just as legit as Annaba to name the Christian city that was originally called Hippone, hometown of Christianity's most famous thinker, Saint Augustine). They tried also to impose "Wahran" instead of "Oran", but it never worked, people still use Oran. Same for Constantine ("Qacentina"), it didn't work. As for Algiers, the Algerian government never even tried to impose the Arabic name.

Apart from that, and with the exception of Saigon now renamed Hô Chi Minh-Ville, I can't think of any example of renaming in French (except in the former Belgian Congo, where various cities have been renamed, but like Saigon, it's not a mere orthography change, it's a full name change, such as Léopoldville becoming Kinshasa).

In any case the problem with French now is the abuse of English, not the fact the French language doesn't use the changed orthography of foreign places. Mexico City (called "Mexico" in French) is increasingly called "Mexico City" by stupid young French people (in French the country is "le Mexique", and the capital city is "Mexico", no article, but I can't count the number of people or even media articles which say "Mexico City", as in "Les meilleurs restaurants à Mexico City"). Likewise, "Capetown", which is "Le Cap" in French, is increasingly called "Capetown" by stupid young French people. It shows a great lack of culture, and complete domination of Anglophone culture. This, in a bizarre way, has even extended to Beijing, with more and more young people and some media saying "Beijing", not because of Chinese government recommendation, but because of English influence. It's ridiculous because no Francophone knows how to pronounce "Beijing" correctly, so they might as well continue to say "Pékin", it won't be any more "foreign sounding" than "Beijing" pronounced by a Francophone who has never studied Chinese.

Oddly I don't see the new Indian names used in French (except Chennai, which has gained some traction as of late). Even young people keep saying Bombay and Calcutta, despite the influence of English. Maybe because "Mumbai" and "Kolkata" just sound ugly in French, I don't know. Same for "Myanmar", it sounds rather ugly in French. Whereas "Bombay", "Calcutta", and "Birmanie" have positive connotations associated to them, a whiff of Orient and antiquity, etc.

You make some good points but as Trunorth says below in many cases these are names imposed and cities that changed their names. Florence is the English word for Firenze so not equivalent. Yes some groups are more sensitive than others but usually for good reason.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Dar-el-Beida / Casablanca is the closest example.

In a lot of Asia, and particularly the subcontinent, they see old names as those imposed by colonizers. So there are most definitely people (particularly on the right in those places) who see the use of old names as disrespectful.

And there's a difference in context too. A local using the old name is very different from a foreign tourist or government agency (particularly from the former colonial power)using the old name. One can be seen as a term of affection. Another is seen as attempting to whitewash colonialism. I guarantee you if you (as a "Frenchman" (allegedly)) try to use "Madras" in Chennai it will not be seen the same way as a local using the same.

[Acajack]

Virginie occidentale also seems really awkward to say but that's what we're supposed to use.

I think most people just say "Virginie de l'Ouest". A few might say "nous sommes dans le West Virginia".

[kool maudit]

Sometimes linguistic particularities go beyond what even appears on the page. To Swedes, Copenhagen is not København (kuh-b'n-hon) but Köpenhamn (shuh-pin-howmn). It all mean's "merchant's harbour", English included ("Chapman's Haven" is the exact cognate), but it took me a while to realize what was being said.

[kool maudit]

I think Peking/Beijing is more of a transliteration issue than some of the more fraught examples like Casablanca or Madras.

[Acajack]

s'Hertogenbosch in the Netherlands is Bois-le-Duc in French.

Aachen in Germany is Aix-la-Chapelle in French.

[kool maudit]

I think it would be funny to get it going that "LA" is disrespectful to the founding Pobladores, with the preferred nomenclature being the original "El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles" and you'd have to say "EPNSRLA" or something. You could probably get at least a few media people stumbling through "ee-pee-en-ess" etc. CBC reporters outside the Staples Center just sounding like absolute aliens.

[Acajack]

La-Nouvelle-Orléans for New Orleans is surprisingly awkward to me in spoken French, when you consider that it's actually the original name.

[Acajack]

Of the "New" US states, New Mexico (Nouveau-Mexique) is the only one that gets the Nouveau treatment in French. (New York does get Nueva York in Spanish.)

But...

Nouvelle-Galles-du-Sud = New South Wales

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

You make some good points but as Trunorth says below in many cases these are names imposed and cities that changed their names. Florence is the English word for Firenze so not equivalent. Yes some groups are more sensitive than others but usually for good reason.

Places that were significant in history (often faded today) will typically have translated names in other languages.

For example Livorno in Italy is Livourne in French and Leghorn (as in Foghorn) in English.

I suppose that in the old days it was an important seaport leading to inland places like Florence and Tuscany, which is why the French and English developed their own names for it.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec media are supposed to use "Detroit" for Detroit, as opposed to Détroit

Why is that?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Why is that?

Not sure. The way they spell it locally, I guess? Though it doesn't make sense because in lots of other cases they use the French spelling.

Saint Louis, Missouri is also supposed to be spelled the English way in the francophone media, whereas a place or street in Quebec with the same name will be spelled Saint-Louis or St-Louis.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

In terms of India's capital, I've never heard anyone in French refer it to anything other than "New Delhi". Never "Nouveau-Delhi" (French) nor "Nai Dilli" (Hindi).

The official name used to be "La Nouvelle-Delhi" (Delhi is feminine). The French ministry of foreign affairs still uses it, but they are the last ones. Spanish-speakers still say "Nueva Delhi" (and "Nueva York" too). It's one of those examples that show that Francophones (the French guilty above all) are just zealous adopters of English, and don't trust their language anymore.



You're also right that Francophones call Delhi as "New Delhi". Apparently they don't know there's a city of Delhi, and New Delhi was just an extension of it. In French it's pronounced "niou-dé-li", with accent on "li". I think if people had to say only "dé-li" they would feel something is missing.