Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Oulala if French Jews are doing aaliyah to Israel these days it's surely not because of Pierre Perret.

I'll give you one guess to find the real reason!

Disons que cela participe d'une atmosphère pourrie, merdique, qui fait lever les yeux au ciel aux Juifs français qui finissent par se dire - qu'est-ce qu'on fait ici, dans ce pays d'abrutis ?

Fais gaffe. La haine des Juifs n'est pas exclusivement islamiste.
En France, le phénomène remonte au moins au Moyen Âge, durant lequel les Juifs se voyaient interdits d'exercer un certain nombre de professions. Essentiellement celles qui étaient considérées les plus nobles (par exemple, la médecine), suivant les périodes.
Ils étaient affectés volontairement aux tâches les plus ingrates et les plus impopulaires, comme la collecte de l'impôt. D'où le vieux stéréotype du Juif aux doigts crochus qui s'accrochent à l'argent. Les gens n'ont jamais aimé payer leurs impôts.

Le roi Saint-Louis lui-même était notoirement défiant à l'égard des Juifs, peut-être parfois à tort, alors qu'il est connu pour avoir été un gouvernant remarquablement évolué à son époque attardée.
C'est dire.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Disons que cela participe d'une atmosphère pourrie, merdique, qui fait lever les yeux au ciel aux Juifs français qui finissent par se dire - qu'est-ce qu'on fait ici, dans ce pays d'abrutis ?

Fais gaffe. La haine des Juifs n'est pas exclusivement islamiste.
En France, le phénomène remonte au moins au Moyen Âge, durant lequel les Juifs se voyaient interdits d'exercer un certain nombre de professions. Essentiellement celles qui étaient considérées les plus nobles (par exemple, la médecine), suivant les périodes.
Ils étaient affectés volontairement aux tâches les plus ingrates et les plus impopulaires, comme la collecte de l'impôt. D'où le vieux stéréotype du Juif aux doigts crochus qui s'accrochent à l'argent. Les gens n'ont jamais aimé payer leurs impôts.

Le roi Saint-Louis lui-même était notoirement défiant à l'égard des Juifs, peut-être parfois à tort, alors qu'il est connu pour avoir été un gouvernant remarquablement évolué à son époque attardée.
C'est dire.

Je suis bien sûr au courant de l'histoire de l'antisémitisme en France et en Europe, bien avant les vagues d'immigration non européenne de la fin du 20e siècle. Qui ne l'est pas, en fait?

Or, si ça n'a pas hélas complètement disparu chez les Franco-Français, je crois qu'on peut dire que comme partout en Occident c'était un triste phénomène heureusement en perte de vitesse, mais dont certains changements de société et événements ont redynamisé depuis quelque temps.

Sans faire d'amalgames douteux, il n'en demeure pas moins que c'est très rare que les gestes antisémites en France de nos jours soient l'oeuvre d'un Monsieur Dupont.

Mais bof, en 2023 plus que jamais toute vérité n'est pas bonne à dire.

[lio45]

Briefly back to the topic of Karl:

Délicieuse ironie de voir le gouvernement Legault insister pour mettre le drapeau en berne, alors que si on avait à résumer la CAQ actuelle en quelques mots, ça serait probablement “des bouffons qui se complaisent dans la médiocrité, le cul assis su’l statut quo” (même pas d’exagération)

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sans faire d'amalgames douteux, il n'en demeure pas moins que c'est très rare que les gestes antisémites en France de nos jours soient l'oeuvre d'un Monsieur Dupont.

Il paraît qu'il y a des résidus de vieil antisémitisme à l'extrême droite.

J'en connais pas, hein. Franchement, j'ai jamais trop vu ça, alors que j'ai vu beaucoup de monde de toute sorte dans ma vie.
Même des royalistes comme le sieur Brisavoine qui s'évertue à spoiler ce thread, ou des Catholiques rigoristes.
Genre conservateurs hardcore... Mais ils n'en veulent pas spécialement aux Juifs. À vrai dire, leurs griefs vont aux Musulmans de nos jours, en effet...

Bref, il semble que des groupuscules d'extrême droite continuent à fantasmer sur les Juifs, alors que je connais bien des Musulmans qui n'en ont à peu prêt rien à foutre.
Ils font juste leurs vies comme tout le monde, se lèvent le matin et vont bosser.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

Briefly back to the topic of Karl:

Délicieuse ironie de voir le gouvernement Legault insister pour mettre le drapeau en berne, alors que si on avait à résumer la CAQ actuelle en quelques mots, ça serait probablement “des bouffons qui se complaisent dans la médiocrité, le cul assis su’l statut quo” (même pas d’exagération)

There was a lot of hysteria over Gord Downey's passing in English Canada too, especially amongst media elites and politicians as well which I also felt somewhat distasteful, opportunistic and unseemly too.

On the other hand, I was genuinely very sad over Gordon Lightfoot's passing - what a legend..............

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mousquet

Il paraît qu'il y a des résidus de vieil antisémitisme à l'extrême droite.

J'en connais pas, hein. Franchement, j'ai jamais trop vu ça, alors que j'ai vu beaucoup de monde de toute sorte dans ma vie.
Même des royalistes comme le sieur Brisavoine qui s'évertue à spoiler ce thread, ou des Catholiques rigoristes.
Genre conservateurs hardcore... Mais ils n'en veulent pas spécialement aux Juifs. À vrai dire, leurs griefs vont aux Musulmans de nos jours, en effet...

Bref, il semble que des groupuscules d'extrême droite continuent à fantasmer sur les Juifs, alors que je connais bien des Musulmans qui n'en ont à peu prêt rien à foutre.
Ils font juste leurs vies comme tout le monde, se lèvent le matin et vont bosser.

C'est que le RN (FN) au point d'origine était hostile à tout le monde qui n'était pas Français de souche, et aussi antisémite. On se rappelle les propos de JM Le Pen sur la Shoah. Mais les événements tant internes en France que mondiaux bousculent beaucoup les choses et forcent le RN à réévaluer sa liste des bons et des méchants. Jadis les souffre-douleur, désormais les Juifs sont (peut-être) à défendre et mieux encore, Israël est un bastion assiégé de civilisation occidentale au Proche-Orient. On peut comprendre le RNiste moyen jadis antisémite d'être un peu mêlé.

Pour ce qui est des Musulmans, mes amis ne disaient pas grand-chose d'Israël et encore moins des Juifs avant octobre 2023. S'ils ne sont pas bien sûr devenus des antisémites génocidaires au cours des dernières semaines, ils ne sont pas non plus des grands admirateurs de l'État hébreu, opinion qu'ils partagent un peu plus qu'avant maintenant.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by lio45

It's a two-way street of course: no one here has any clue who "Chandler Bing" is, and the passing of the actor didn't really make the news in the franco world.

(My Anglo ex turned me into a fan of Friends, but I'm the exception to the rule. Humor such as Friends' can't be translated, so it's not a product that can be exported outside the Anglosphere.)

On the island especially amongst millennials, the show Friends is pretty well known. There were hommages on TVA/LCN and RDI paying tribute to Matthew Perry's passing.

But yea the regions are a totally different beast, and no one in my SO's hometown knows what Friends is. My SO didn't know until studying in CEGEP at Montreal and got introduced to it there.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There was a lot of hysteria over Gord Downey's passing in English Canada too, especially amongst media elites and politicians as well which I also felt somewhat distasteful, opportunistic and unseemly too.

On the other hand, I was genuinely very sad over Gordon Lightfoot's passing - what a legend..............

It was way overhyped for sure.. there's definitely a big chunk of the GTA that cannot relate culturally, and did not understand the media hysteria over Gord's passing.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

It was way overhyped for sure.. there's definitely a big chunk of the GTA that cannot relate culturally, and did not understand the hysteria over Gord's passing.

My kids are too old for Friends but they know what it is. They generally don't watch any sitcoms at all, not even the ones popular today. In my experience francophone kids in Gatineau don't really watch American sitcoms much, and those who do are the ones who have an anglophone parent so their English is on another level.

They do watch American dramatic series on Netflix, and series from around the world in fact.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

My kids are too old for Friends but they know what it is. They generally don't watch any sitcoms at all, not even the ones popular today. In my experience francophone kids in Gatineau don't really watch American sitcoms much, and those who do are the ones who have an anglophone parent so their English is on another level.

They do watch American dramatic series on Netflix, and series from around the world in fact.

Yea I think GenZs and younger in general don't watch sitcoms anymore, doesn't matter if it's Toronto or New York or Montreal. The genre is on life support.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

It was way overhyped for sure.. there's definitely a big chunk of the GTA that cannot relate culturally, and did not understand the media hysteria over Gord's passing.

I know you're not necessarily saying this (though some might!) but I don't think that the overhype over Gord Downie is even problematic, just because certain demographics in Toronto and elsewhere can't relate.

Similarly, Karl Tremblay obviously doesn't resonate at all with certain groups in Quebec but that shouldn't stop people from marking his passing the way they want to.

Sorry for how this sounds but apologizing for merely existing has its limits.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by P'tit Renard

On the island especially amongst millennials, the show Friends is pretty well known. There were hommages on TVA/LCN and RDI paying tribute to Matthew Perry's passing.

But yea the regions are a totally different beast, and no one in my SO's hometown knows what Friends is. My SO didn't know until studying in CEGEP at Montreal and got introduced to it there.

Fluency in English is required to enjoy Friends.

Among my circle of friends (Québécois physicists who are more worldly than average and speak English) the show “How I Met Your Mother” was very popular and we still have running gags from it, while someone like my gf, doesn’t know it at all, even though I’m sure she’d love it, if she spoke English.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I know you're not necessarily saying this (though some might!) but I don't think that the overhype over Gord Downie is even problematic, just because certain demographics in Toronto and elsewhere can't relate.

Similarly, Karl Tremblay obviously doesn't resonate at all with certain groups in Quebec but that shouldn't stop people from marking his passing the way they want to.

Sorry for how this sounds but apologizing for merely existing has its limits.

No worries. It was a candid observation based on how our friends and colleagues was reacting to the wall-to-wall nonstop coverage on TV. They just felt it was a bit too much. Gord isn't Celine, Alanis Morrisette or Shania Twain, which many in the GTA emotionally connect with more.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by lio45

Fluency in English is required to enjoy Friends.

Among my circle of friends (Québécois physicists who are more worldly than average and speak English) the show “How I Met Your Mother” was very popular and we still have running gags from it, while someone like my gf, doesn’t know it at all, even though I’m sure she’d love it, if she spoke English.

Basic fluency at most, Friends was a very popular show for kids in East Asia to learn English.

The island is the most bilingual place in Canada by a mile, so I'm not surprised it has significant traction there.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There was a lot of hysteria over Gord Downey's passing in English Canada too, especially amongst media elites and politicians as well which I also felt somewhat distasteful, opportunistic and unseemly too.

On the other hand, I was genuinely very sad over Gordon Lightfoot's passing - what a legend..............

Justin's tears were over the top.

Yes, there was genuine sadness over Mr. Lightfoot's passing.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I always recognize that francophones can be quite clueless about anglophone culture.

The difference with (many) ROCers is that francophones don't generally pretend they aren't clueless about the other solitude's culture, or claim it is part of their culture even if they don't know anything about it.

I have no issue with ROCers not knowing Québec's stars and vice versa. We are two different nations and two different cultures living in the same country. Where I have a problem is when Québécois are being called close minded for not knowing English-Canadian stars while ignorance of Québec stars by English-Canadian is dismissed because "no one knows them outside Québec".

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Justin's tears were over the top.

Yes, there was genuine sadness over Mr. Lightfoot's passing.

Justin's tears were just Justin being Justin, his mother's child.

[niwell]

I’m not a huge Tragically Hip fan but I thought it was cool that virtually every bar in central Toronto (and elsewhere I’m sure) had a screening of their final concert. There’s a certain Anglo-Canadian - and particularly Toronto - trait that normally finds this stuff kinda cringey. But sometimes just embrace it.

On a side note it was sad to hear of the passing of Les Cowboys Fringants’ Karl Tremblay. I always enjoyed them even though they are very off the radar here. And I had to look up the meaning of most of their songs. I imagine that was huge in Quebec.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by niwell

I’m not a huge Tragically Hip fan but I thought it was cool that virtually every bar in central Toronto (and elsewhere I’m sure) had a screening of their final concert. There’s a certain Anglo-Canadian - and particularly Toronto - trait that normally finds this stuff kinda cringey. But sometimes just embrace it.

On a side note it was sad to hear of the passing of Les Cowboys Fringants’ Karl Tremblay. I always enjoyed them even though they are very off the radar here. And I had to look up the meaning of most of their songs. I imagine that was huge in Quebec.

English Canada used to have an ambivalent relationship with celebrity, but I would say that celebrity culture has now been pretty fully embraced.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

English Canada used to have an ambivalent relationship with celebrity, but I would say that celebrity culture has now been pretty fully embraced.

This has definitely changed a bit, yeah. For a long time in the Canadian music industry there was a certain dismissiveness when anyone actually made it big. I think there’s a bit more recognition that people need to actually make enough money to live now.