The Lives and Deaths of Cities

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's possible that this contributes to the difference of opinions, where Quebecers may be more likely to have family in the GTA, but maybe Quebecois are less likely?

These discussions remind me of the discussions of economic drivers and businesses in different cities. There is typically a bias toward what's easy to see and describe. For example having the Google HQ in your town is noticeable but a healthy ecosystem of small businesses may not be. Tourism is very noticeable but business trips and family visits perhaps are less so. Toronto and Montreal are both very economically and demographically complicated and I would guess that no one person has a good overall view of why most people travel between them unless there is some kind of survey.

The most successful cities are often kind of inscrutable while the more fragile ones have some specific reason for existing like some industrial plant.

[hipster duck]

At this point, not having decent rail service between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal is getting to be embarrassing. I can't think of a city pair in the developed world that doesn't have one that could support it more.

There are equidistant city pairs with more population and GDP between the two of them that have no real rail service - like SF-LA or DFW-Houston - but (1) there are shovels in the ground (even if, for CAHSR, it's moving at a glacial pace and the outcome is uncertain) or plans that are further along than our HFR project, and, (2) those cities are a lot more decentralized and car-dependent than Toronto or Montreal.

[MolsonExport]

Via has been on starvation rations since it was created, living on borrowed time, money, and ancient rolling stock, and with trains shunted aside for freight. Canada probably has the shittiest passenger rail service in the developed world. It is beyond embarrassing.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Also, NYC cheaper than Toronto? I dunno about that. Especially with our dollar as it is.

Cheaper gas, I said.

NY is pricier than NH so the road trip to NYC will be more expensive than the road trip to Boston but that's still markedly cheaper than here at least, even if I was wrong about Ontario's gas prices:

https://www.albanygasprices.com/

[thewave46]

First: Yeah, if we're going to go on holiday, I'd rather visit New York City - a global capital - versus Toronto, a regional one. Even with a 30%+ premium. That it is just more convenient for most Quebec residents (six hours from Montreal by car) is the icing on the cake and can be an extra long weekend getaway versus one that requires at least a week for those coming from farther away.

Second: Perhaps I take it as obvious given time and age, but this country's formation was never a product of natural forces. It was product of an Empire that didn't want to lose its foothold to the United States, but didn't want to bear the costs of building and managing something of the scale a third of the world away. Why bleed money out of London ($100 million in the 1880s, a mindbending sum of the day) when one can load the burden onto the nascent country? The English were clever in their scheming, and all the better they had MacDonald and Cartier with a vision of a country that still kept the Empire alive in North America.

Wide open spaces do give perspective on life that might not be so readily available in a more closed environment. Maybe the revelation of Parizeau that seems so obvious in retrospect was just a product of the lived experience. Like how everyone knows that Tokyo is a crowded, busy, large city, but until they experience it viscerally it's just a vague concept.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lio45

Cheaper gas, I said.

NY is pricier than NH so the road trip to NYC will be more expensive than the road trip to Boston but that's still markedly cheaper than here at least, even if I was wrong about Ontario's gas prices:

https://www.albanygasprices.com/

Are Québecers really deciding vacations based on 40-50¢/L difference in gas prices? I find that very hard to believe. For a 500 km drive that is a $20-25 difference.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Are Québecers really deciding vacations based on 40-50¢/L difference in gas prices? I find that very hard to believe.

No idea, I was just pointing out that fact, that's all. (That the "better" destination is actually going to cost you less to go there. Reminds me of the fact that plane tickets to St. John's are more expensive than plane tickets to Ireland, therefore I'd just never choose the former!)

Thinking about it though, people are often irrational, so maybe a 50¢/L difference in gas prices would sway a number of them. I recall seeing news articles over the years about people completely changing their habits over ridiculously tiny changes in prices.

I suppose my greater point was that Toronto *could* be a good "Poor Man's NYC" destination for Quebec residents, *if* it were a lot cheaper as a destination than its equally distant and more exotic rivals NYC and Boston, but since that's not the case, well...

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's possible that this contributes to the difference of opinions, where Quebecers may be more likely to have family in the GTA, but maybe Quebecois are less likely?

If you mean Anglo-Quebecers are more likely to have relatives in the GTA than Franco-Quebecers, then yes that seems very logical.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

No idea, I was just pointing out that fact, that's all. (That the "better" destination is actually going to cost you less to go there. Reminds me of the fact that plane tickets to St. John's are more expensive than plane tickets to Ireland, therefore I'd just never choose the former!)

Thinking about it though, people are often irrational, so maybe a 50¢/L difference in gas prices would sway a number of them. I recall seeing news articles over the years about people completely changing their habits over ridiculously tiny changes in prices.

I suppose my greater point was that Toronto *could* be a good "Poor Man's NYC" destination for Quebec residents, *if* it were a lot cheaper as a destination than its equally distant and more exotic rivals NYC and Boston, but since that's not the case, well...

There is also the perception (not necessarily rooted in reality) that while you're in the US you can do a bit of shopping and take advantage of the lower prices.

Again, I've never heard Quebecers talk about taking a trip to the GTA with any part of the trip being focused on shopping. Whereas people mention that as a "bonus" of trips to the US all the time.

[MonctonRad]

I would not be at all surprised if Quebecois defaulted to NYC or Boston to get their biannual fix of anglo North American culture. It is geographically closer, arguably a little more exotic and certainly provides them with a greater variety of things to do. NYC is arguably the cultural capital of the world.

—, I'm from NB, and I would never go visit Toronto purely for a cultural fix. I do visit Toronto occasionally so I can take in a couple of Blue Jays games, and I will do some other stuff on the side when I am there, but, aside from that, Toronto is mostly just an abstract concept for me.

I am with the Quebecois on this one..............

[New Brisavoine]

I've been looking at air passenger figures on the US Bureau of Transportation Statistics website, but their new database is an unmitigated disaster. It's something that always baffles me with the US. How can such a technologically sophisticated country produce so clunky and user-unfriendly websites. It's beyond me. Websites from ministries and statistical agencies in Europe are so easy to use in comparison.

So anyway, guess what, they have simple 0 flight between JFK and YUL in 2022 in their database. As if no company flew between both airports. I've checked for Delta specifically, and they have data for only one month in 2018. Frankly not serious for the administration of a first-world country.

[Zeej]

Plenty of Québecois accents in Toronto during the summer, at least when I lived there a few years ago. It's as if it's recently been discovered, but nonethless, many Québecois and Québecoise around - on the waterfront, in the subway, near the CN tower - the whole deal.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Zeej

Plenty of Québecois accents in Toronto during the summer, at least when I lived there a few years ago. It's as if it's recently been discovered, but nonethless, many Québecois and Québecoise around - on the waterfront, in the subway, near the CN tower - the whole deal.

Indeed. I've met more than a few people from Montreal in Toronto bars. Either travelers like myself that like getting away to another city to check things out or here for an event/show. Not counting those visiting friends/family.

As hipster duck said above I'd never try and claim it's more of a destination than NYC or Boston.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I would not be at all surprised if Quebecois defaulted to NYC or Boston to get their biannual fix of anglo North American culture. It is geographically closer, arguably a little more exotic and certainly provides them with a greater variety of things to do. NYC is arguably the cultural capital of the world.

—, I'm from NB, and I would never go visit Toronto purely for a cultural fix. I do visit Toronto occasionally so I can take in a couple of Blue Jays games, and I will do some other stuff on the side when I am there, but, aside from that, Toronto is mostly just an abstract concept for me.

I am with the Quebecois on this one..............

My only reason for going, nowadays.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

My only reason for going, nowadays.

But you're an Ottawa-KW guy, so...

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

If you mean Anglo-Quebecers are more likely to have relatives in the GTA than Franco-Quebecers, then yes that seems very logical.

Unless you're willing to deport them from Quebec, those anglos are still Québecers though, so their travel preferences and activities should count as those of the residents of Quebec broadly. So I guess we're can move on from your personal projections here?

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I've been looking at air passenger figures on the US Bureau of Transportation Statistics website, but their new database is an unmitigated disaster. It's something that always baffles me with the US. How can such a technologically sophisticated country produce so clunky and user-unfriendly websites. It's beyond me. Websites from ministries and statistical agencies in Europe are so easy to use in comparison.

So anyway, guess what, they have simple 0 flight between JFK and YUL in 2022 in their database. As if no company flew between both airports. I've checked for Delta specifically, and they have data for only one month in 2018. Frankly not serious for the administration of a first-world country.

You don't need the database. Use flightaware and count the flights. I did. And then I did rough math based on aircraft type. Lots of RJs flying 70-90 pax between Montreal and New York and Boston. Meanwhile, Montreal-Toronto has RJs and everything from 190 seater 321s to the odd 300 seat A330 and B787. There's nearly 35 flights each way between Montreal and Toronto's two airports. Average number of seats per departure is probably over 150. There's about 25 flights between Montreal and New York City's three major airports. Average number of seats is probably close to 120. Flights between Montreal and Boston makes a complete mockery of the idea that this is major destination from Montreal. I won't give the number. Some of you need to look it up to get over yourselves.

And none of that even includes trains or buses. VIA sends 9-10 trains per day combined to Ottawa and Montreal. Each one of those trains carries about 300 pax. Go look up how many trains run between Montreal and Boston and New York. I am too lazy to look up buses. But I would bet money there's more bus traffic between Montreal and Toronto than there is between Montreal and New York or even Boston.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

There's about 25 flights between Montreal and New York City's three major airports.

There are 6 airports in the NYC metro area.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Flights between Montreal and Boston is makes a complete mockery of the idea that this is v major destination from Montreal.

Many people driving to Boston probably. I would.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Unless you're willing to deport them from Quebec, those anglos are still Québecers though, so their travel preferences and activities should count as those of the residents of Quebec broadly. So I guess we're can move on from your projections here?
.

It was you and not me who brought up the distinction between Quebecers (assumed to be anglophones) and Québécois (assumed to be francophones) in the same post.

You'll notice that I never use the two terms in the same post as opposites to make such a distinction.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by niwell

As hipster duck said above I'd never try and claim it's more of a destination than NYC or Boston.

The problem here is that people are mixing up the idea that there's more contact between two places with the idea that this infers preference for vacations and such.

New York City and Boston are both more interesting as vacation destinations. I don't think you'll find many from Toronto that debate that. But they doesn't means this is actually where Québecers travel to most often. For a multitude of reasons, be that family, work, border hassles, there's vastly more travel between Toronto and Montreal. I thought that works be undeniable. But apparently, some people can't even accept reality with dozens of planes and trains plying those routes everyday.

What's actually more surprising to me, is that Ottawa and Montreal aren't more integrated and growing into each other, like say Baltimore and DC.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

There are 6 airports in the NYC metro area.

How many of those have scheduled flights to Montreal? You can look it up. Go on. I'm sick of your — trolling.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Many people driving to Boston probably. I would.

Major destination. But every single tourist is too broke to fly apparently? Yet somehow they can afford multiples of that number to New York.

And have you looked up the number of trains yet? Or are you just here to troll without work?