The Lives and Deaths of Cities

[niwell]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I remember Robert Charlebois (famous Québecois singer from the 1970s), he said as soon as he could he left Montréal for NYC, because that's where things were happening. He wouldn't have gone to Toronto (in fact he was quite disparaging of Toronto... in one of his most famous songs he says "à Toronto... mais si je me rappelle bien ça fermait un p'— peu trop tôt", i.e. [I went to] Toronto... but if memory serves me right things closed a tad too early there").

I have no doubt - Toronto of the 70s was a very different place! And francophone artists are probably much more likely to stay in Montreal nowadays. Paris may have sway but I'm not familiar with that side of the music industry.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I remember Robert Charlebois (famous Québecois singer from the 1970s), he said as soon as he could he left Montréal for NYC, because that's where things were happening. He wouldn't have gone to Toronto (in fact he was quite disparaging of Toronto... in one of his most famous songs he says "à Toronto... mais si je me rappelle bien ça fermait un p'— peu trop tôt", i.e. [I went to] Toronto... but if memory serves me right things closed a tad too early there").

Though he eventually landed in Paris.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9w2ev6vkik

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

It would have to be Toronto. It doesn't play the same role in Quebec as it might in Halifax or Winnipeg, but Quebec business is just not that tied to New York. The Canadian superstructure is more significant than the New York ties that exist.

Correct. NYC has no special role for us. On a continental scale, a random Quebec company's suppliers and business contacts are just as likely to be anywhere in the USA than in NYC. Mine are mostly in Oklahoma and Texas, with a bit in PA and WV. Actually we just received a truckload of material this week at our Montreal-area jobsite, straight from our West Virginia supplier.

But for more "local" stuff, the GTA is where the main pool of suppliers is concentrated. If you need something in Central Canada that's a bit specialized (i.e. you can't get it in your city) but not THAT specialized (i.e. doesn't have to come from Texas), chances are it's going to come from Southern Ontario.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by niwell

My wife was actually there recently but flew out in the morning and came back later in the evening after a dinner.

Surely in these days of global warming a high-speed train line between Toronto and Montréal would make much more sense than keeping using CO2 emitting planes? It speaks volumes than such a line was never built and is not even considered (as far as I know) today, doesn't it?

Montréal is at the same distance from Toronto as Paris to Bordeaux. Thanks to the new high-speed train line, central Bordeaux is only 2 hours by train from central Paris now.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

Correct. NYC has no special role for us. On a continental scale, a random Quebec company's suppliers and business contacts are just as likely to be anywhere in the USA than in NYC. Mine are mostly in Oklahoma and Texas, with a bit in PA and WV. Actually we just received a truckload of material this week at our Montreal-area jobsite, straight from our West Virginia supplier.

But for more "local" stuff, the GTA is where the main pool of suppliers is concentrated. If you need something in Central Canada that's a bit specialized (i.e. you can't get it in your city) but not THAT specialized (i.e. doesn't have to come from Texas), chances are it's going to come from Southern Ontario.

What about week-end gateways? Easter holidays? Toronto, NYC, or Boston? I mean for those who don't go to Florida/Caribbean of course.

[niwell]

Not a city but a lot of Québécois visit Prince Edward County in Southeastern Ontario. It has one of the nicer freshwater beaches, a lot of good quality wineries and has become a somewhat of a farm to table culinary destination. It's one of the few places in Ontario where a lot of businesses have bilingual menus/signage and at least some bilingual staff.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

What about week-end gateways? Easter holidays? Toronto, NYC, or Boston? I mean for those who don't go to Florida/Caribbean of course.

Yes, as I mentioned NYC is a popular weekend getaway. So is Boston. Some people go to Toronto as well but not as much as NYC that's for sure.

Though one advantage that Toronto has is that it can be lumped in with Niagara Falls on the same short trip.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

Not a city but a lot of Québécois visit Prince Edward County in Southeastern Ontario. It has one of the nicer freshwater beaches, a lot of good quality wineries and has become a somewhat of a farm to table culinary destination. It's one of the few places in Ontario where a lot of businesses have bilingual menus/signage and at least some bilingual staff.

I think that might be the most popular Québécois destination in Ontario, with the exception of Ottawa. (People from Quebec visit Ottawa a fair bit, and I don't just mean Gatineau locals.)

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Surely in these days of global warming a high-speed train line between Toronto and Montréal would make much more sense than keeping using CO2 emitting planes?

Don't even get me started. I took that train a few years ago. We boarded in a queue through a single door like an airplane. Then the train was like three feet above the platform at Union and had these little stairs that folded out, like a freight train. Then we drove along at 65 kph and stopped every 20 minutes. My wife still laughs about it. It was possibly the shittiest Canadian performance that I have ever exposed a foreigner to.

[Acajack]

New Brisavoine should know that a high-speed train between Montreal and Toronto has been proposed and studied 637,832,678 times, but nothing has ever been done.

[Acajack]

I should add that on a cultural level, Quebec gets its homegrown francophone culture from Montreal (and some international francophone culture from France and other countries), and its global anglophone culture comes primarily from NYC and LA. Not Toronto. London may even be on par with Toronto in terms of *apparent* cultural impact here.

[niwell]

We'll have European style commuter rail in Montreal/Toronto longgggg before there's anything resembling a high speed link between the two cities, unfortunately.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think that might be the most popular Québécois destination in Ontario, with the exception of Ottawa. (People from Quebec visit Ottawa a fair bit, and I don't just mean Gatineau locals.)

What for? Business reasons or tourism?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Don't even get me started. I took that train a few years ago. We boarded in a queue through a single door like an airplane. Then the train was like three feet above the platform at Union and had these little stairs that folded out, like a freight train. Then we drove along at 65 kph and stopped every 20 minutes. My wife still laughs about it. It was possibly the shittiest Canadian performance that I have ever exposed a foreigner to.

Canada prides itself on being different from (and better than) the US, but here it's just exactly the same. That strange disinterest in trains is just bizarre.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

New Brisavoine should know that a high-speed train between Montreal and Toronto has been proposed and studied 637,832,678 times, but nothing has ever been done.

My point, precisely. It's understandable that Québec sovereignists like PQ or mild-nationalists like CAQ would not be too keen on a line tying Montréal closer to Toronto, but you'd think the Liberals and the federal government would be very keen on building such a line to reaffirm the "unity" of the country.

PS: The PQ should propose a Montréal-NYC high-speed line, just for the LOLs.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

What for? Business reasons or tourism?

Both.

It's only 200 km so a very easy day trip from Montreal and environs, and there are nice museums and the Parliament, etc.

There is obviously way less to see and do in Ottawa than in Toronto, but Toronto requires staying overnight.

And if you're going to be staying somewhere overnight, then NYC enters the equation when leaving from the Montreal area.

Another thing is that Québécois are more likely to have relatives in Ottawa - or Gatineau - than in Toronto.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

My point, precisely. It's understandable that Québec sovereignists like PQ or mild-nationalists like CAQ would not be too keen on a line tying Montréal closer to Toronto, but you'd think the Liberals and the federal government would be very keen on building such a line to reaffirm the "unity" of the country.

PQ or CAQ or Quebec nationalists aren't necessarily against the train, or better transportation links with our neighbours - even on the Canadian side of the border.

They're not that petty.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Canada prides itself on being different from (and better than) the US, but here it's just exactly the same. That strange disinterest in trains is just bizarre.

It was seriously like going to the airport and finding out you're going to be flying on one of these.



Which is weird, because the Montreal and Toronto metros are absolutely competitive with anything. Taking GO to Oakville was pretty much just like taking Stockholm commuter rail. It's not like there is a total veil of ignorance about trains. But these intercity services are becoming so outdated it is like they are folklore artifacts. "Can you imagine, kids? This is how it used to be." The Olde Pioneer Towne Railway.

It is really not far from having horse-drawn trolleys.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

But these intercity services are becoming so outdated it is like they are folklore artifacts. "Can you imagine, kids? This is how it used to be."

I was watching a documentary about Marilyn Monroe last night, they were showing her first trip to NYC (from LA), and she arrived in NYC... at the train station! Those were certainly very different days! America had more an air of Europe back then.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lio45

In practice, that general trend is weighted by resource richness. (And when the latter is high, the former is kinda irrelevant.)

You think industries like to set up shop here mostly "because we're part of Canada" or "because we have very cheap, renewable electricity"?

I think there's real limits to this idea. The smaller the market the lower down the value chain its industry, Unless there's genuine industrial strategy to manage and benefit industrial and talent development. You seem this in Canada at large, where we have to Duchy really hard to win manufacturing. Plenty of interest in just extracting resources here though. A substantially smaller country would have an even higher hill to climb. And that's before considering major Canadian corporations that either base substantial operations or HQs in Quebec that benefit from Canada's size or protectionism. I doubt Montreal's aerospace sector or airlines would be the same size after separation.