The Lives and Deaths of Cities

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by niwell

Gonna disagree somewhat with this part. Reinforced concrete is gonna last a longggg time. It's the rest of the building that can become suspect. A well-managed reserve fund can ameliorate this a lot of course. Even with changes to the Condominium Board this can be suspect in a building that's not run well.

But that's the problem though. Most of the unit owners in a lot of the newer buildings are amateur landlords who don't give a damn about long term maintenance. They are cash flow negative or barely breaking even and couldn't care less if the building reserve fund is properly funded. They are mostly hoping to flip. All these buildings designed and marketed to specuvestors are very much a problem and future liability.

[casper]

Originally Posted by acottawa

That sounds more like a problem with the wood construction than the density.

Yes.

I don't have an issue with the mid or high density.

In BC many of the 4-5 story building built in the 80s and 90s were mold disasters. They required extensive remediation. Something that that much taller concrete building has less issues with.

In part I would toss this up to an ongoing issue with cheap construction technques.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

... despite a proven track record (inside and outside Canada) of capital fleeing instability.

In practice, that general trend is weighted by resource richness. (And when the latter is high, the former is kinda irrelevant.)

You think industries like to set up shop here mostly "because we're part of Canada" or "because we have very cheap, renewable electricity"?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Maybe its current, vaguely desultory second-city status is a form of retirement or respite from everything it has gone through. Like Alexandria or Thessaloniki.

I think the Québécois see Montréal more as the primate city of Québec than as the 2nd city of Canada, but Acajack can confirm.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I think the Québécois see Montréal more as the primate city of Québec than as the 2nd city of Canada, but Acajack can confirm.

Of course. Montreal is THE big city for us. It's like Paris for you or London (UK) for Brits.

Everyone has friends or relatives who live/work in Greater Montreal, and anyone who's in business has to be there from time to time, whether they like that city or not. I imagine any French businessman of a certain level or above is in Greater Paris every now and then even if they hate it, no?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I mean the big existential things that affect the viability of the place as a potential long-term home: the inextinguishable sovereigntist sentiment, nativist laws and racist legislation, the occasional bomb-drop like Legault's ridiculous out-of-province tuition plan, which seems designed to intentionally backwater the city in a bid to preserve linguistic identity.

Preserving their linguistic (and more generally cultural) identity at the cost of even "backwaterness" is the most central founding stone of Québec society. That's why the Québécois (then called "Canadiens") refused to enter the newly-founded USA in 1780, and again in 1813, and in fact that's why Canada exists today, because a French Catholic society established along the banks of the St Lawrence River would refuse to enter the Protestant Anglophone USA.

To ask them to remove that central element of their society would be like asking Israel to stop being a Jewish state. Economy is only a mean to an end, it's not the end in itself.

[kool maudit]

There is no way to ensure the survival of the French language in North America by completely liberal means, particularly in the metropolitan context of Montreal. That way lies New Orleans.

There must be illiberal measures, and these will be taken by the surrounding Anglophone majority as societal demerits.

This tension is inherent to the setup.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

Everyone has friends or relatives who live/work in Greater Montreal, and anyone who's in business has to be there from time to time, whether they like that city or not. I imagine any French businessman of a certain level or above is in Greater Paris every now and then even if they hate it, no?

What about Toronto? Do you have to go there from times to times, or can you live your entire life in Québec without ever setting foot in Toronto?

Also, I'd be curious to know whether for the Québécois Toronto plays a more important role than NYC, or whether it's just the same, or whether NYC plays a more important role...

[kool maudit]

It would have to be Toronto. It doesn't play the same role in Quebec as it might in Halifax or Winnipeg, but Quebec business is just not that tied to New York. The Canadian superstructure is more significant than the New York ties that exist.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

There is no way to ensure the survival of the French language in North America by completely liberal means, particularly in the metropolitan context of Montreal. That way lies New Orleans.

There must be illiberal measures, and these will be taken by the surrounding Anglophone majority as societal demerits.

This tension is inherent to the setup.

As long as immigrants and francophones have to be educated in French the conditions are the same as most smallish states. The Swedish language still exists even there is no logical reason for it to.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Preserving their linguistic (and more generally cultural) identity at the cost of even "backwaterness" is the most central founding stone of Québec society. That's why the Québécois (then called "Canadiens") refused to enter the newly-founded USA in 1780, and again in 1813, and in fact that's why Canada exists today, because a French Catholic society established along the banks of the St Lawrence River would refuse to enter the Protestant Anglophone USA.

To ask them to remove that central element of their society would be like asking Israel to stop being a Jewish state. Economy is only a mean to an end, it's not the end in itself.

Wow, there is some revisionist history there, Malek. Many people believe that Quebec would have been toast if it weren't part of the British Empire at that time. The Americans, after all, occupied Montreal for a spell in 1775-1776. Do you really believe that Canadiens would have been able to repulse the Americans on their own during the War of 1812? At best, Quebec very likely would have ended up like New Brunswick or at worst, like Louisiana. Be careful what you wish for.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by acottawa

As long as immigrants and francophones have to be educated in French the conditions are the same as most smallish states. The Swedish language still exists even there is no logical reason for it to.

Yeah, and that educational requirement was very controversial among Montreal anglos, and was characterized as an illiberal measure. Are we even in disagreement here?

Swedish benefits from linguistic fragmentation, as well. If the rest of the EU + Norway all spoke German, and had for a few centuries, it would probably be gone as a public language.

It's not uncommon to hear Swedes say it will eventually disappear. I actually doubt this, but you hear it said, and usually by those who make a show out of being unbothered by it (saying this is an "I'm a logical thinker and beyond folk-prejudices" signifier).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

It would have to be Toronto. It doesn't play the same role in Quebec as it might in Halifax or Winnipeg, but Quebec business is just not that tied to New York. The Canadian superstructure is more significant than the New York ties that exist.

Interestingly I see on Google Maps that Toronto is a 5 h 40 min drive from Montréal, whereas Boston is only a 5 h 10 min drive, and NYC is a 6 h 20 min drive. It's even worse in Québec City: Toronto is an 8h 10 min drive, whereas Boston is only a 6 h 25 min drive, and NYC an 8 h 45 min drive.

Which of these cities do the Québécois visit most? And I don't mean for business reasons, but all sorts of reasons.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

What about Toronto? Do you have to go there from times to times, or can you live your entire life in Québec without ever setting foot in Toronto?

Also, I'd be curious to know whether for the Québécois Toronto plays a more important role than NYC, or whether it's just the same, or whether NYC plays a more important role...

There are plenty of anglo / ROC Canadians who have never been to Toronto. Or if they have it's Pearson airport straight to the financial district (or worse, airport area hotel conference room) for business purposes.

That being said, there are more ties between Montreal and Toronto than anywhere in the US. American students from Boston are more likely to got to Mtl to party but the opposite isn't true.

A lot of anglo Canadians outside of Ontario also like to (paradoxically) complain about the predominance of Toronto media and in the same breath dismiss the city's cultural importance. While it's far from the dominance of NYC, much less a place like Paris or London, it's there. I have a lot of friends in the independent (anglo) music industry for instance - they wouldn't be able to advance their careers to this extent anywhere else in Canada. The next step up would be LA or London (not NYC surprisingly).

[Acajack]

Kool is right that economically it's Toronto by a longshot. Ontario and Quebec are the siamese twins of Canada with about two thirds of the country's population in a single corridor. The economic ties run very deep.

That said, Toronto in Quebec is still a bit behind the scenes, mostly limited to corporate boardrooms and such.

I live in Quebec right on the border with Ontario and you really don't hear about Toronto that much here. At least not relative to Montreal. "Our" big city and metropolis here is clearly Montreal.

It's not just a question of geographic proximity either.

For francophones, the national news comes from Montreal, our TV networks and all our other media are based there, so are our book and magazine publishers, the labour unions we may be members of, etc. All of our celebrities, public figures, opinion leaders, captains of industry, etc. are all based in the Montreal area as well.

When I say NONE of this societal stuff for francophone Canadians is based in Toronto, it's not really an exaggeration. It's effectively zero for all intents and purposes.

Even way out in Vancouver, there is a significant chunk of all that that is based in Toronto.

Not so for us.

[kool maudit]

Culturally, it's like Acajack says. Commercially, though, Saputo or something like that is not going to do a bond offering through J.P. Morgan and Citi. It's going to be handled by RBC Dominion, BMO Nesbitt Burns etc., possibly alongside Banque Nationale and others.

So there are going to be Toronto people involved in all kinds of things like this, and not NYC people.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

What about Toronto? Do you have to go there from times to times, or can you live your entire life in Québec without ever setting foot in Toronto?

Also, I'd be curious to know whether for the Québécois Toronto plays a more important role than NYC, or whether it's just the same, or whether NYC plays a more important role...

Haven't set foot in Toronto for 23 years and counting. Though this very morning, about half an hour ago, I used my online banking portal to pay a supplier who is located... let me go and check... Steeles Ave West, Toronto.

It's all but impossible to do business in Canada without having to interact with some GTA-based or at the very least Southern-Ontario-based entity every now and then.

Québécois who aren't in business though, can (and do) live their entire lives without ever even going near Toronto.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by niwell

A lot of anglo Canadians outside of Ontario also like to (paradoxically) complain about the predominance of Toronto media and in the same breath dismiss the city's cultural importance. While it's far from the dominance of NYC, much less a place like Paris or London, it's there. I have a lot of friends in the independent (anglo) music industry for instance - they wouldn't be able to advance their careers to this extent anywhere else in Canada. The next step up would be LA or London (not NYC surprisingly).

I remember Robert Charlebois (famous Québecois singer from the 1970s), he said as soon as he could he left Montréal for NYC, because that's where things were happening. He wouldn't have gone to Toronto (in fact he was quite disparaging of Toronto... in one of his most famous songs he says "à Toronto... mais si je me rappelle bien ça fermait un p'— peu trop tôt", i.e. [I went to] Toronto... but if memory serves me right things closed a tad too early there").

[niwell]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Culturally, it's like Acajack says. Commercially, though, Saputo or something like that is not going to do a bond offering through J.P. Morgan and Citi. It's going to be handled by RBC Dominion, BMO Nesbitt Burns etc., possibly alongside Banque Nationale and others.

So there are going to be Toronto people involved in all kinds of things like this, and not NYC people.

Yep. My wife and other friends who work for large corporations (tech/finance/consulting) deal with Montreal based offices fairly often. Not as common post-COVID but Mtl staff will come to Toronto for meetings and vice-versa. My wife was actually there recently but flew out in the morning and came back later in the evening after a dinner.

Culturally there are ties with anglo Montreal (I'm mostly familiar with the music industry) but I have no doubt there are very few with the francophone population.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Interestingly I see on Google Maps that Toronto is a 5 h 40 min drive from Montréal, whereas Boston is only a 5 h 10 min drive, and NYC is a 6 h 20 min drive. It's even worse in Québec City: Toronto is an 8h 10 min drive, whereas Boston is only a 6 h 25 min drive, and NYC an 8 h 45 min drive.

Which of these cities do the Québécois visit most? And I don't mean for business reasons, but all sorts of reasons.

Pretty sure people visit NYC more, though Toronto which was long seen as boring here (as per the Charlebois song) has a somewhat better reputation than it used to for being an interesting place.

I mean, if you have a choice between the Big Apple and the Big Smoke and the distance is the same, which do you choose?

My kids and their friends have never been to Toronto together other than on school trips. It's not really a "thing" for young Quebecers to go to Toronto. It's more common to go to Montreal (if you're not from there), Quebec City or NYC. Or somewhere a lot further afield.

In terms of studies, Toronto also isn't a big destination for Quebec (francophones) either. Though neither is NYC. Members of Quebec's anglophone minority do go study in the Rest of Canada and the US more than francophones, though.

Quebec francophones if they study outside Quebec very predominantly go to the University of Ottawa which is a bilingual institution. (You can actually study there and still live right across the river in Quebec. One of my kids is at the U of Ottawa right now this morning.)