The Lives and Deaths of Cities

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And we can't say that about some of Canada's contemporary condo tower glass and steel forests?

If you read my previous sentence I think that's what I was trying to suggest...

In contrast to older highrise communities that have remained viable. The typology isn't necessarily the issue.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by niwell

If you read my previous sentence I think that's what I was trying to suggest...

In contrast to older highrise communities that have remained viable. The typology isn't necessarily the issue.

OK thanks.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is a bit of a slap-in-the-face post, because it almost feels like you're the only person in all of Canada who has thought that all of these newish towers in our cities could become shitholes eventually.

Kind of like Hillbrow in Johannesburg.

I wish you hadn't said it.

Originally Posted by niwell

FWIW I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with highrise housing (even though it's not for me). The highrise communities built all over the GTA in the 60s/70s actually feature spacious layouts and can be very family-oriented. Some are in bad shape but plenty remain perfectly fine for the average person -in some locations they are actually very desirable even when next to new-builds (Yonge/Eg). You can say they're ugly but the physical layouts are inherently more efficient than point-towers. Regardless of that the biggest issue arises when things are built primarily with investors in mind and treated like a tradable security. FWIW Hillbrow was redeveloped almost entirely on spec with somewhat dubious funding sources.

Exactly. It's not the type so much as how this 🞵🞵🞵🞵 is built. It's not built to last 30 years. Let alone 50 years. There aren't many towers today that will have the longevity of Hausmann's apartments in Paris. In fact, they are all escalating liabilities with more and more expensive maintenance, thanks to all that glass. And it's not just the towers, the neighbourhoods are usually designed poorly. They aren't very adaptable. Today's CityPlace is tomorrow's Jamestown.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by casper

Yes it is. Shocking how reserve the reaction has been to that idea.

In Vancouver (and Victoria) new multi-family is either concrete towers or these 4-5 story wood frame apartment buildings. I would much rather be in one of the towers than those wood frame buildings.

We should be aspiring to be a modern city and not aspiring to be new-Paris.

I have lived in various types of buildings in various countries in various densities. Maybe it is just my personal experience, but the quality of life in medium density areas tends to be higher.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I have lived in various types of buildings in various countries in various densities. Maybe it is just my personal experience, but the quality of life in medium density areas tends to be higher.

Unless it's well maintained (like a Singapore Housing Development Board neighborhood), it's very hard to keep high rises well maintained and neighbourhoods active and vibrant. They inevitably just become filled with transients who don't care about the owner because they aren't going to be staying more than a year or two.

[Acajack]

Only certain regions like Latin America and East Asia seem consistently successful at keeping the street level below high-rise residential towers vibrant with people.

Europe and North America almost never seem to be able to get this right. (With the possible exception of Manhattan?)

[thebasketballgeek]

Middle housing for the middle class, skyscrapers for the poor, and detached homes for the wealthy is basically how housing in the rest of the world works. It works in East Asia and Latin America better because they also have a shitton of middle housing integrated with the highrises. They aren’t separate entities placed in distinct neighborhoods but usually merged together. That’s why Montreal arguably does highrises just as a good as any city in North America.

Just took a while for North America to rejoin that trend, albeit with a few potentially fatal quirks as have already been mentioned.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Middle housing for the middle class, skyscrapers for the poor, and detached homes for the wealthy is basically how housing in the rest of the world works. It works in East Asia and Latin America better because they also have a shitton of middle housing integrated with the highrises. They aren’t separate entities placed in distinct neighborhoods but usually merged together. That’s why Montreal arguably does highrises just as a good as any city in North America.

Just took a while for North America to rejoin that trend, albeit with a few potentially fatal quirks as have already been mentioned.

Looks like it will be a more painful transition than expected.

[casper]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I have lived in various types of buildings in various countries in various densities. Maybe it is just my personal experience, but the quality of life in medium density areas tends to be higher.

I just look at those 4-5 story building and they look like prime candidates for mold and becoming the next generation of leaky condos.

The old ones not so much. The concrete high-rise I have been in come across as just more sold construction. Especially true with the older ones.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Exactly. It's not the type so much as how this 🞵🞵🞵🞵 is built. It's not built to last 30 years. Let alone 50 years. There aren't many towers today that will have the longevity of Hausmann's apartments in Paris. In fact, they are all escalating liabilities with more and more expensive maintenance, thanks to all that glass. And it's not just the towers, the neighbourhoods are usually designed poorly. They aren't very adaptable. Today's CityPlace is tomorrow's Jamestown.

Gonna disagree somewhat with this part. Reinforced concrete is gonna last a longggg time. It's the rest of the building that can become suspect. A well-managed reserve fund can ameliorate this a lot of course. Even with changes to the Condominium Board this can be suspect in a building that's not run well.

There are concrete shells in Hillbrow that haven't seen any maintenance in 30 years remain structurally sound, and others in the same condition that have been rehabbed:
2015: https://maps.app.goo.gl/a8mQh4JbASr9yM3dA
2022: https://maps.app.goo.gl/uY499HU5p8p6DuaaA
2010: https://maps.app.goo.gl/DeeHF13BcUdHWLsN6
2023: https://maps.app.goo.gl/1oemjgFnzLrmNVbU8


When I worked with Ontario's Building Code the engineers there were most in favour of reinforced concrete mid-rises, albeit without some of the fancy things like automated parking garages. No real issues with mid-rise wood (so long as it's not stick-frame, which it was never intended to be) other than potential for noise.

FWIW I am a lot less worried about Cityplace than I am some of these new master-planned highrise communities in the suburbs. There was much more effort put into community design and it's starting to feel like a real neighbourhood, even if not my cup of tea from a design perspective. Even St. Jamestown doesn't have the notorious reputation it did 15 years ago. Then we have stuff like this - the money that's being used to tear down a fully occupied rental building for a taller highrise illustrates how broken the system is: https://maps.app.goo.gl/NnN2zWwBCSpFmv6n8

[giallo]

Originally Posted by someone123

Around here of course all food prices have gone up, but it doesn't seem like they all went up in lock step. I am often surprised at how cheap it is at some of the small places and in particular Chinese restaurants (some of them here being very tasty and good value for dollar). Then again a lot of it is mostly blobs of starch even if it is tasty.

Meanwhile upscale casual burgers and beers for 2 are $80 now with tax and tip.

A formerly popular burger truck closed recently citing 'cost of doing business'. I bought a burger and fries from them last spring, and it came to $30 before any kind of tip. I was completely shocked when I saw the price. I just can't fathom a food truck having to charge $30 for a burger and fries to break even.

Chinese food malls in Burnaby (Crystal Mall), Coquitlam (Henderson Mall) and Richmond (um....everywhere) are the best bang for your buck in Metro Vancouver. Good, sometimes excellent authentic food for $10-$12, no tax. We go almost every weekend to try somewhere new, and we're almost never disappointed.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Acajack's observations are at once surprising and not. On my last trip to Ottawa-Gatineau I noticed the urban areas felt a little moribund. Vancouver was the same way when I was there last year. Even the urban parts of Toronto felt a little sapped of energy compared to before the pandemic.

Interesting.

When I came back to Vancouver in late 2021, it definitely felt empty and super grungy, but now? While Vancouver isn't booming in the economic sense, the city has never felt busier and more vibrant. It's bursting at the seams with people these days. I've never, ever seen Vancouver this crowded before.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by casper

I just look at those 4-5 story building and they look like prime candidates for mold and becoming the next generation of leaky condos.

The old ones not so much. The concrete high-rise I have been in come across as just more sold construction. Especially true with the older ones.

That sounds more like a problem with the wood construction than the density.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by giallo

Chinese food malls in Burnaby (Crystal Mall), Coquitlam (Henderson Mall) and Richmond (um....everywhere) are the best bang for your buck in Metro Vancouver. Good, sometimes excellent authentic food for $10-$12, no tax. We go almost every weekend to try somewhere new, and we're almost never disappointed.

I've been using the Fantuan app to get takeout (not delivery) from a lot of places near my work I've always been curious in but never really knew what to order. And little English language signage. So much cheaper for a lot more food than even fast food or grocery store hot counters. Was inspired by your post with Xi'an style "hamburgers" in another thread and found a place that does them (among many other things).

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by niwell

Xi'an style "hamburgers"

What are these?

[giallo]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

What are these?

It's a pork burger (rou jia mo) specific to the city of Xi'an/Shaanxi Province.

Xi'an cuisine has become pretty popular in Vancouver and Toronto these days (probably due to immigrants arriving from the region).


It's deliciously fatty and flavourful.

[kool maudit]

Damn that looks good.

[jonny24]

Looks very good, although I don't think burger is the right analogue. If I had to make a comparison I'd say pulled pork on a bun, or even a taco would be closer descriptions.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by giallo

When I came back to Vancouver in late 2021, it definitely felt empty and super grungy, but now? While Vancouver isn't booming in the economic sense, the city has never felt busier and more vibrant. It's bursting at the seams with people these days. I've never, ever seen Vancouver this crowded before.

For what it's worth I think Vancouver is getting noticeably larger and busier feeling and has done better than any of the major American West Coast cities after the pandemic (aside from San Diego which I haven't gone to so can't offer an opinion on). I also think that the Broadway extension is a major city-building project that is long past due so that adds some positive momentum.

On the other hand, it varies a lot depending on what part of town you are talking about and there are some problems that have gotten worse instead of better. The social problems in the city have arguably escalated and the real estate wealth doesn't generally translate into matching improvements in the standard of living or how much fun the city is. Some of fun businesses have shut down or been shut down (Keefer Yard) while most of the new stuff is more generic. Lots of people who aren't homeless feel precariously housed or trapped.

Everybody knows about the homeless and drug problems which have worsened but the sky-high real estate costs also push out marginal or more creative land uses and very few young people have a lot of their own indoor or outdoor space to work with. It feels like more and more lifestyles outside of the McLifestyle of a white collar job, generic condo, and frequenting businesses get pushed out over time. This isn't Vancouver specific but it's felt particularly acutely here.

Another problem around here is that rural areas and nature are becoming harder to get to. I've given up on going to North Vancouver a few times due to traffic and couldn't find any BC ferries at times. This is theoretically one of the advantages of BC. It's similar with slow travel around metro Vancouver with most of the nice recreational stuff being in a few areas while poor people live on transit only and are a bus ride away from a train stop in Surrey. If you have millions of dollars you can live in a nicer area but living standards are pretty good for multimillionaires in a lot of places. Part of this relates to the idea people talk about that Canada needs more cities to grow, not only more and more people packed into the same places where it can be expensive to add infrastructure.

[SignalHillHiker]

That looks a lot like stuffed toutons here! Touton Lane, for example, has the Saucy Pig with pulled pork: